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Pre-requisites for feats and powers

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Pre-requisites for feats and powers

Postby Black Wings » Thu May 26, 2011 4:23 am

Does anyone else think there are not nearly enough pre-requisites for the feats and powers listed in the core book? As an example off the top of my head, Tough can be taken five times and has no prereqs whatsoever. This means you can take it four times at level 1, once more at level 2, and your Toughness is ridiculously high by level 2. I realise if you do this you are giving up five other feats and presumably this should balance things out, but it still seems weird to me. Dodge Focus and Sneak Attack are similar.
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Re: Pre-requisites for feats and powers

Postby ValhallaGH » Thu May 26, 2011 7:25 pm

I consider this to be a feature of the rules, not a bug, allowing almost any character to pick up the abilities essential to the concept, without having to have a 13 Dexterity or other D&D 3.5 nonsense; though tastes vary.

And for boosting Toughness, no feat can compete with Armor Training. Even spending 5 feats on Tough can't equal the best armors (+6 Toughness).

Oh, and it would take 3 levels, barring a Favored Feat, since Tough is a Warrior feat and Warriors must spend one of their feats on proficiency.
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Re: Pre-requisites for feats and powers

Postby Black Wings » Fri May 27, 2011 2:58 am

ValhallaGH wrote:Oh, and it would take 3 levels, barring a Favored Feat, since Tough is a Warrior feat and Warriors must spend one of their feats on proficiency.


I didn't know that, must have missed it when reading the book.

I wasn't saying it was a bug. I consider it a feature of the rules too, just one I don't like.

Another thing is Cure, and some of the other powers. Because of power bonus progression, which is automatic for all your powers as you level up, you only ever have to spend one feat (or power, rather) and then it's just a matter of time before you're an amazingly powerful healer. Similarly, you can get powerful mind-affecting powers like Dominate without bothering to get less powerful ones like Suggestion. For reasons to do with character concept as much as "game balance", that seems off to me.

But I'm not on a tirade or anything, I just wonder if other people have found this to be the case. I have very little experience playing True 20.
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Re: Pre-requisites for feats and powers

Postby ValhallaGH » Fri May 27, 2011 9:57 am

You do gravitate to the trouble spots. ;)

Cure - At level 1, an Adept can automatically cure any damage condition. And since you can only heal one condition at a time, that's all it takes.
+1 Key ability +4 power bonus (adept level +3) + 5 (take 5 option) = 10, the DC of recovery.
It takes a minimal investment to become the world's finest magical healer, able to cure any and every wound, in the middle of the fight that inflicted the wound.

Dominate - requires you to establish Mental Contact (usually via Mind Touch). Suggestion does not.
Each power has advantages. Suggestion just takes 1 round to use, while Dominate takes at least 2 rounds.

Move Object - is an extremely powerful Disarm power. No real argument to make.

Generally, Adepts can achieve amazing effects for an extremely low Feat investment. However, that is coupled with an extremely high Level investment - they have to put almost every level into the Adept role to get the most out of (most of) their powers. Favored Power does allow Warriors and Experts to use a similar exploit, but only with one power.
Warriors and Experts have high feat investments but low level investments on their abilities. Adepts take the opposite approach, resulting in a lot of "glass cannons" at high levels.
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Re: Pre-requisites for feats and powers

Postby Black Wings » Fri May 27, 2011 10:56 am

Heh, I gravitate to the trouble spots because I think the system is so close to exactly what I want it to be, those spots irritate the hell out of me.

That's interesting, I hadn't thought of it like that. But I still don't like it. In a setting where an adept is a "mage" you can probably assume at least one player will make a pure adept character. Given that that player won't even consider watering down their character with warrior or expert levels, they are inevitably going to be the greatest healer imaginable at the cost of one feat (out of their 23). I would just prefer a scenario where getting really, really good at something takes up a significant proportion of resources...

But, as other people have mentioned, T20 seems to be very good for modifying and inventing new rules, so maybe the thing for me to do would be to introduce Cure II, Cure III and so on and sort of cap each one somehow. (I have already decided to use some kind of hit point system in place of the damage conditions in fact).

Yeah, I'm just thinking aloud (or in type) now :)
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Re: Pre-requisites for feats and powers

Postby ValhallaGH » Fri May 27, 2011 4:34 pm

Black Wings wrote:In a setting where an adept is a "mage" you can probably assume at least one player will make a pure adept character. Given that that player won't even consider watering down their character with warrior or expert levels, they are inevitably going to be the greatest healer imaginable at the cost of one feat (out of their 23).

They'll also be the squishiest character imaginable. 8)

Adepts have two options for Toughness. Constitution and Armor. I've seen a player actually play a level 18 Adept with a Toughness bonus of 0. It was bad, when she got it. :twisted:
Experts have Defensive Roll, while Warriors have Tough. It's possible to invest in super-tough-build, and have a Toughness of 36 (8 Con + 6 armor + 5 tough + 17 defensive roll). Not that you can do anything else, except shrug off 22 damage like it didn't exist; but you can do it.
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Re: Pre-requisites for feats and powers

Postby Mach5RR » Sat May 28, 2011 2:10 pm

The one thing you guys are forgetting with Cure is fatigue.

A 2nd level adept (with a Wis +0) using Cure has to get an eight or better on his fatigue saving throw. A 20th level adept (with a Wis +0) using Cure has still has to get an eight or better on his fatigue roll.
And fatigue saving throws are cumulative. Heal 5 wounds during a combat, and your already a -4 on fatigue saves.
And you still have to take extra feats to "improve" on your cure.
Unless your target has the civility to get wounded right next to you, it will take you a move action to get next to him (usually right into the heart of combat, the ungrateful swine). Then it will take a full round action to cure one condition. Want to improve this time? The adept has to take the Quicken feat to change it to a standard action (and incur a -8 penalty to fatigue). Wish to group heal? Take the widen feat (with a -6 penalty). One downside to widening is that it affects all individuals within range.
From the Adept source-book you can also take the "Extended Reach Power" feat, which extends the range of your heal out by 5'.
Finally, another Adept can take the "Incurable Power" feat. Doesn't matter if your first or 20th level, an adepts cure WILL NOT heal damage from abilities using this feat.

As an addendum, I would not let an Adept take Cure as an innate power.

Yes, I know that Adepts will normally have higher than +0 on Wis. I was just surprised to find that what was needed to make the Fatigue save does not alter. Since an adepts base fatigue is 10 + half his level, his fatigue difficulty increases every two levels. At exactly the same rate his will save does. (Due to leveling weirdness, odd level adepts have have one point more difficulty than even level adepts with fatigue).
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Re: Pre-requisites for feats and powers

Postby Mach5RR » Sat May 28, 2011 2:28 pm

The thing to remember with True20, is that it's a toolkit. These feats/powers are presented with basic pre-reqs, but you as GM may have campaign specific pre-reqs to go with it. The toughness feat could be interpreted in a Cyberpunk style game as surgically implanted skin-weave, or as some obscure martial-technique to absorb damage in a fantasy game. Your setting is what controls how your players access these feats. Heck, I've ruled some feats/powers unavailable to beginning characters and access to them has to be role-played out. What's more impressive, the fact that your warrior has 5 levels of toughness by level three, or him seeking out mystic masters who tattoo arcane symbols on him to increase his resilience.
If you don't like that feats can be taken simultaneously, then rule they can't. If you can make adjustments in the game that restrict you to taking a level of adept every other level, then you can certainly alter stackable feats to every other level as well.
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Re: Pre-requisites for feats and powers

Postby ValhallaGH » Sat May 28, 2011 4:01 pm

Mach5RR wrote:The one thing you guys are forgetting with Cure is fatigue.

A 2nd level adept (with a Wis +0) using Cure has to get an eight or better on his fatigue saving throw. A 20th level adept (with a Wis +0) using Cure has still has to get an eight or better on his fatigue roll.

No he doesn't.

He has to get 10 + 1/2 the Adept level that he used the power at. As I illustrated, using it as a level 1 adept is all he needs. Therefore the Fatigue Save DC for Cure would always be 10. At level 20 he succeeds on anything except a 1.
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Re: Pre-requisites for feats and powers

Postby Mach5RR » Sat May 28, 2011 10:33 pm

ValhallaGH wrote:No he doesn't.

He has to get 10 + 1/2 the Adept level that he used the power at. As I illustrated, using it as a level 1 adept is all he needs. Therefore the Fatigue Save DC for Cure would always be 10. At level 20 he succeeds on anything except a 1.


Ouch, yeah I forgot about the block under saving throws. I got caught up in the fact that certain powers (like Combat Sense) specifically list dropping your difficulty for less fatigue, that I started assuming those that didn't list it could not. Mea Culpa.

But I still stand by what I said concerning fatigue. Recovery is a screwy, unrealistic device anyway. A dying person, with 10 wounds and 15 hurts, can be fully healed in two days or less with no assistance whatsoever. So outside of combat a 1st level character can restore his party by taking 10. Unless someone earned a disabled, all he has done is shave several hours of rest of recuperation off of the party.

In combat, your adept must be 6th level before the cure is automatically made (Since a 1 is not an automatic failure nor a 20 an automatic success). At 18th level (Wis +1, Will +11, Min 1 on die roll) does he no longer risk fatigue from an initial use. Still, if you add in the fatigue penalties from the expansion feats, or the multiple uses, the fatigue can bite someone in the butt during combat.
I still think my argument stands. Yes cure is quite nice outside of combat, and I certainly want it used in combat. But an adept has to spend feats to make it an even more powerful ability than it already is.
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Re: Pre-requisites for feats and powers

Postby ValhallaGH » Sun May 29, 2011 6:44 am

Mach5RR wrote:In combat, your adept must be 6th level before the cure is automatically made (Since a 1 is not an automatic failure nor a 20 an automatic success).

As I said at the beginning of this thread, a 1st level Adept using the Take 5 option (read it, it's super-awesome-powerful, and on page 8) and with a +1 in his Key ability will always heal the worst damage condition. And if he's a Wisdom-based caster then he's looking for a DC 10 will save, with his minimum +3 - 70% success rate is pretty great.

Cure is one of the few powers that achieves maximum effect at level 1.
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Re: Pre-requisites for feats and powers

Postby Mach5RR » Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:07 pm

ValhallaGH wrote:
Mach5RR wrote:In combat, your adept must be 6th level before the cure is automatically made (Since a 1 is not an automatic failure nor a 20 an automatic success).

As I said at the beginning of this thread, a 1st level Adept using the Take 5 option (read it, it's super-awesome-powerful, and on page 8) and with a +1 in his Key ability will always heal the worst damage condition. And if he's a Wisdom-based caster then he's looking for a DC 10 will save, with his minimum +3 - 70% success rate is pretty great.

Cure is one of the few powers that achieves maximum effect at level 1.

Not ... quite. Yeah, the Take 5 rule is super-awesome powerful, and totally negates the point of the take 1 rule. Instead of building to auto-succeed on a 1 with skills, PCs will now be doing it as if they rolled a 5 ... great.
Cure, RAW, is also super-awesome ... outside combat. Inside combat if someone is dying, an adept must spend a full round action moving him from dying to disabled, a 2nd round for disabled to unconscious, and a 3rd round for unconscious to conscious. All the while with whatever having done this still attacking/inflicting damage. Even if the adept is treating wounds, it still becomes a lose situation as lethal damage inflicts TWO conditions (Stun Collateral), but Cure only treats one.
They (almost) fixed this with the Adept's source-book under the advanced powers section (p. 55). Under the advanced rules, Cure can fix Charisma damage (when has that -ever- come up btw?) with a difficulty of 15 vs the standard 10 (Difficulty 20 for Charisma Drain, which I have never even thought of). But the fascinating part of this where they state that for every 5 points the difficulty is exceeded, an extra point can be restored.
I see no reason why this cannot be applied to the standard cure damage, with every 5 points allowing the Adept to heal another condition. This allows Cure to grow with the adept, and ensures they risk their precious drain when the chips get really down.
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