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Thread: I am so tired of Hero High... Why do people hate heroes?

  1. #11
    Protomolecule Host grimmshade's Avatar
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    Re: I am so tired of Hero High... Why do people hate heroes?

    If a villain grabs a civilian, that would be their Standard action, so they wouldn't be able to ready an action till next round, right?
    Also, can you ready an action against a readied action? "If he goes to shoot the civilian I'll shoot him."

    On topic, I can't get into a Hero High type game either. The only way I would be interested is if it were more Young Justice styled, where High School was only a small part of the drama. But then I can't really relate to any of the play as teens RPG's that are so popular right now.

  2. #12
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    Re: I am so tired of Hero High... Why do people hate heroes?

    Quote Originally Posted by SilvercatMoonpaw View Post
    I've been thinking about reducing skills such there are only 7 and each costs 1 pp/rank -- 1 for Agility, 1 for Dexterity, 2 for Intellect, 1 for Awareness, 2 for Presence -- making abilities give exact skill value for their cost. When you do that you could conceive of using those skills as stand-ins for Attacks and Defenses since they're the same value. You'd have to set up some limitations about when a given skill/attack/defense can be used (otherwise everyone uses their best all the time), but it's a start to shaking up the status quo.
    You need to adjust the skill cap then, and well... The everything cap... Because skill bonuses can get wayyyyyyy higher than attack caps.

  3. #13
    OPA Belta Lara Croft's Avatar
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    Re: I am so tired of Hero High... Why do people hate heroes?

    This is another area where I feel that simulationist tendencies ultimately hurt the game. It's much harder to do this sort of thing as well when you are going really hard at the simulationist approach. I don't like the idea of completely abandoning it all in favor of something much looser like Cortex Heroic, but I think my ideal definitely would be closer in that direction. You can spend Hero Points to stunt an Alternate Effect and use your web-shooters to, say, smother a fire or a grenade, or the like, but I find the solution somewhat clunky.

    Reducing Skills? I can see that, perhaps. I myself would probably reduce Abilities to maybe 4 at the most, but then, I think I'd probably be ditching the Ranks & Measurements table, too. As much as I liked that it basically took my former favorite supers system (MEGS, in particular as presented in Blood of Heroes) and revived it, anymore I find that I just don't need that level of granularity in supers games. The comics stories where the exact amount more that Hulk can lift baseline over, say, the Thing are basically nonexistent. Exact MPH amounts on speed aren't a thing that get tracked, and comics writers are notoriously bad at putting real-world figures to feats, anyway. Cortex Heroic has too few categories for me, but recent games like FFG's Genesys-powered games, and FATE has for a long time done things like range bands, which I dig. I think those work better for most games, including (and perhaps especially) supers. Lifting capacities could become somewhat more open-ended feats of strength, because once again, in no story ever does "Spider-Man can only lift ten tons, but not this 14-ton vehicle!" ever matter, even outside of things like Extra Effort. Simply put, writers don't stick to those beyond general limits, which means I don't see a need for a game to emulate something that superhero stories themselves don't bother trying to capture.

    My hypothetical M&M "4E" (or whatever) would be pretty different. Probably a stat setup similar to Marvel SAGA, with a scale that operated more along those lines (more granularity, but similar categories from Mortal to Godlike and so on), the same power creation system but using also a more narrative ranks & measurement system. Range bands instead of hard range measurements (because, again, Cyclops being able to shoot exactly 1000 feet or the like isn't a thing; range bands are better for this), probably similar for area measurements and so on. As time goes on, even for supers or even sci-fi games, I just haven't had a need for very specific measurements for a long time now. Even speed is so rarely, in a dramatic storytelling context and especially in a superheroic one, strictly measured that broader groupings of ability would work well.

    Ahh, and I find myself digressing too far. This is a topic I rather enjoy, although I should start one specifically to really drill into the subject, or even put together a layout for a potential "Lara's Version of M&M Beyond" or whatever.

  4. #14
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    Re: I am so tired of Hero High... Why do people hate heroes?

    I'd be very interested in that project.

  5. #15
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    Re: I am so tired of Hero High... Why do people hate heroes?

    Quote Originally Posted by hypervirtue View Post
    You need to adjust the skill cap then, and well... The everything cap... Because skill bonuses can get wayyyyyyy higher than attack caps.
    It'd be interesting, though, if the cap were the same as Attack/Defense. Because that means the usual low-power/high-accuracy character who are often badass normals would also have high skills or high variety in attack methods (depending on how the system is laid out). Which is a cool idea.

  6. #16
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    Re: I am so tired of Hero High... Why do people hate heroes?

    Have you tried ICONS? Didn't Steve Kenson remove a lot of specifics in ICONS that you find in M&M?

    Quote Originally Posted by Distance
    Distance in Icons is measured abstractly in ranges, roughly describing a level of distance, how far apart two things are. The ranges are:

    Personal Close enough to touch someone, or to have someone standing right behind you. You can communicate by whispering.

    Close Close enough to hit someone with a melee weapon or shoot them at point-blank range, or move up to them and do so in a single panel. You can communicate by speaking normally.

    Extended Out of range for close attacks, but still within range for firearms and similar ranged attacks. You can only communicate by shouting.

    Visual Out as far as the eye can see. You can make out outlines and shapes, but not individuals. You can't communicate except by visual or long-distance means (such as radio).

    Beyond As in "beyond visual range." This is a catchall for greater distances, which are usually expressed in general or real-world terms (such as "a continent across" or "100 miles").

  7. #17
    OPA Belta GhostShowPress's Avatar
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    Re: I am so tired of Hero High... Why do people hate heroes?

    Quote Originally Posted by hypervirtue View Post
    This is just a mini rant. Yelling into the Void. Just... I'm so frustrated. I play on Roll20 since I've been confined to a wheelchair. There is such a massive lack of hero games it is downright painful.

    There isn't a single vanilla hero game. There are 12 games. Weird, grimdark, villain, steam punk, fantasy, and.... Hero High.

    Like a full 3rd of the games are Hero High or My Hero Academia.

    I just feel so left out.

    At age 38... I just can't wrap my brain around a teenager. I just have no interest in a protracted origin story and I don't get the appeal.

    Arrgh, can someone just explain the fascination to me?
    I think we were close to being of one mind on this score when Jon L. suggested I write for the Hero High book, and honestly I only agreed to it because the very dear Lucien Soulban asked me as well. So having said yes to a friend, I had to try to figure out the appeal.

    What I came to appreciate about teen supers is how, dramatically speaking, it's giving power few should ever have to people at the time in their life they are least equipped to make good decisions about using them. Having to apply whatever values and morals they've absorbed and make good decisions when the consequences of failure are so utterly catastrophic is a very solid basis for dramatic storytelling. I found that very compelling, and ultimately was very proud of the Shadow Academy and its mix of powerful teens learning the wrong things and about to play a dear, dear price for it all.

    That's how I made it work for me. Hopefully, there's something useful in that. Cheers and best wishes to you, my friend!
    Last edited by GhostShowPress; 11-30-2018 at 11:23 PM.
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    https://www.facebook.com/GhostShowBoss/

  8. #18
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    Re: I am so tired of Hero High... Why do people hate heroes?

    I found the Shadow Academy student body to be serve well as "a cautionary tale" to their Hero High counterparts, and the opposing schools were worthy homages to the early days of New Mutants, which I remember with great appreciation.

    And Hypervirtue-I definitely understand your perspective, as revisiting the teenage mindset requires a not-inconsiderable degree of acting skill, even if one is interested in
    "going back home again", and it seems clear you prefer to game out more grown-up heroics. I agree there's appeal in just straight-up, mainstream superhero adventures instead of narrowing into deeper sub-genres. Though playing younger, less experienced heroes doesn't necessarily have to mean lots of angst or extended melodrama-The Legion of Super-Heroes, and the Bronze Age Teen Titans and X-Men were pretty much four-color in tone, they just tackled smaller-scale threats (until the story lines built up to big climaxes).

    All my best in finding the right gaming group for you!

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