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Thread: house rules for array point cost

  1. #11
    OPA Belta digitalangel's Avatar
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    Re: house rules for array point cost

    Quote Originally Posted by kenseido View Post
    I presume you have an exception for combat skills.
    That same combat skills in 3E existed in 2E, just under different names your ranged and melee attack bonus, but the cost comes out the same. There is some tweaking needed to adjust to the new stats in 3E and such.

    I just personally really prefer the extra crunchiness in the 2E skills list, and in general, but 3E made some good changes as well. Basically at my table we play M&M 2.5 in between the 2 versions. I keep slowly making the transition to purely 3E playing in games run by other people, but certain things from 2E I will always prefer. The whole 2E vs 3E arguement is an old one and has been hashed out more times than I would like to count on the boards already.

    I completely agree with your previous statement about the Grappling rules between the versions. 2E feels more correct as a model, but 3E rules are more straight forward to understand.
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  2. #12
    MCRN Admiral kenseido's Avatar
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    Re: house rules for array point cost

    Oh, I see, you are using the 2e skill list, not 2e skill costs.

  3. #13
    OPA Belta Bothrops's Avatar
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    Re: house rules for array point cost

    Some thoughts:
    People complaining about arrays are usually GMs with a deeply ingrained orthodox "D&D-mindset" - "Get an extra power for just 1 point? NO WAY!!!"
    Yet the array is a basic component of the M&M system, so I'd say "just roll with it". But if you still have serious issues with the concept of arrays (and the possibilities they grant), then perhaps M&M isn't the right game for you.
    That said, of course arrays can be abused (just like so many things in M&M) so they require some GM oversight. Yet I'd rather decide on a case-by-case basis, and avoid making blanket rulings.


    Quote Originally Posted by DeanH
    The bigger issue with arrays is if people start adding other actions like Teleport, since that starts giving you huge out of combat powers.
    So what? IMHO this is a perfectly legitimate use of an array. In this case, it's a utility/travel teleport effect, since you cannot use it simultaneously with your combat powers.


    Quote Originally Posted by kenseido
    Edit: Also, no permanent powers, and Continuous powers switch off when you change the array.
    ...
    Yes, but I have seen people try to make these slide.
    I freely admit I'm one of these people - at least when dealing with certain fringe cases.
    The foremost ones are continuous/permanent Create & Transform, and this was even endorsed by the devs (and indirectly by official builds). Sounds really silly to me, if Mr Freeze's ice blocks would suddenly vanish the moment he changes the settings of his ice-gun.
    The other special case is an array of alternate forms: If you change into, say, an elephant, having non-permanent Growth would enable you to freely change your size.
    In such an array, each slot contains multiple effects (the traits of the alt-form), and if one of these is permanent, you still cannot selectively turn it off. You'd have to switch off the whole alt-form (& all its traits) - it's all or nothing.

  4. #14
    MCRN Admiral kenseido's Avatar
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    Re: house rules for array point cost

    Quote Originally Posted by Bothrops View Post
    I freely admit I'm one of these people - at least when dealing with certain fringe cases.
    The foremost ones are continuous/permanent Create & Transform, and this was even endorsed by the devs (and indirectly by official builds). Sounds really silly to me, if Mr Freeze's ice blocks would suddenly vanish the moment he changes the settings of his ice-gun.
    The other special case is an array of alternate forms: If you change into, say, an elephant, having non-permanent Growth would enable you to freely change your size.
    In such an array, each slot contains multiple effects (the traits of the alt-form), and if one of these is permanent, you still cannot selectively turn it off. You'd have to switch off the whole alt-form (& all its traits) - it's all or nothing.
    I totally agree with what you are saying. I did like that in 2e, they had Independent which would last beyond switching powers in an array. It is basically Continuous + Fades for +0.

    INcidentally, I believe Steve, back when he was doing official answers on the old forum did say Continuous Create would stay up after the array switches. Most people generally treated that section of ATT as RAW.

  5. #15
    OPA Belta Bothrops's Avatar
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    Re: house rules for array point cost

    Quote Originally Posted by kenseido View Post
    I totally agree with what you are saying. I did like that in 2e, they had Independent which would last beyond switching powers in an array. It is basically Continuous + Fades for +0.

    INcidentally, I believe Steve, back when he was doing official answers on the old forum did say Continuous Create would stay up after the array switches. Most people generally treated that section of ATT as RAW.
    As a houserule, I revived the old 2e Independent extra for 3e, in a more simplified version. I renamed it as "Enduring" to avoid confusion though, since the name "Independent" is already used for an Illusion extra (allows maintaining active illusions as a free action).
    Enduring: +2 flat extra
    This extra can be added to a Sustained effect. Normally it's only meant for Create, Transform, Environment, Obscure (see Power Profiles), and static Illusions; the GM may permit other effects (attack- or trait effects are off-limits). An enduring effect sustains itself for 30 seconds (time rank 2) before ceasing. The user has no further control over the effect, it becomes completely independent immediately after initiation. This also means that the effect continues working even when in an array that's switched away. Enduring is basically a simplified reincarnation of the old 2e Independent extra. I decided to recreate it in a new version, since I was unsatisfied with Secondary Effect (or Cloud area) alone (they both work fine for attack effects, but for the abovementioned ones they're quite awkward & unduly expensive) and wanted more options.

  6. #16
    OPA Belta digitalangel's Avatar
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    Re: house rules for array point cost

    Quote Originally Posted by Bothrops View Post
    As a houserule, I revived the old 2e Independent extra for 3e, in a more simplified version. I renamed it as "Enduring" to avoid confusion though, since the name "Independent" is already used for an Illusion extra (allows maintaining active illusions as a free action).
    I've pulled that extra into 3E for certain builds as well. I even find that it can also make sense for certain Affliction or Damage effects, but only for a very limited number of descriptors and largely in the same places that the Contagious extra usually covers it instead.
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  7. #17
    MCRN Admiral FuzzyBoots's Avatar
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    Re: house rules for array point cost

    People being on fire is a good case of Independent damage although, as you stated, Secondary Effect and Contagious does a decent job at it too.

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