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Thread: Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition Revised: Week 5 - Powers

  1. #51
    OPA Belta Squirrelly-sama's Avatar
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    Re: Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition Revised: Week 5 - Powers

    Quote Originally Posted by Nintendogeek01 View Post
    Okay: Accurate in an array where the same power (telekinesis, fire, energy, etc.) is applied in different ways (blasts, afflictions, etc.).

    Not Okay: Accurate in an array where a guy has super-strength and punches people, but in the same array has wind blast or whatever other form of blast that also has accurate tagged on it.

    There. Two examples. Are there gray areas? Sure. But I CAN'T define them, because where the line is drawn in gray areas varies from GM to GM.

    Now please stop asking me where I draw my line. Where I, personally, draw my line doesn't affect other GMs who might make use of these topics. If we go back to my first post you'll note that I actually don't have any changes in mind for accurate. I only put it up there as a word of advice, that's all it is. Advice, not a mandate, not a hard and fast rule. Advice.
    The thing is that he shouldn't really even have enhanced strength in an array with wind control unless the two where from some sort of descriptor that would make that make sense. Like calling wind faries down to his fists to either help him lift or blasts things. There, I gave you a perfectly valid reason why someone would have those two in an array and why both would probably be accurate.

  2. #52
    OPA Belta Squirrelly-sama's Avatar
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    Re: Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition Revised: Week 5 - Powers

    Quote Originally Posted by SilvercatMoonpaw View Post
    M&M is not a good RPG for modeling what happens in stories when you deprive the character of important aspects like their powers.

    Except that mechanically the summon being the main character and the summoner being a low-powered sidekick results in the same effect without abusing the Summon/Sidekick rules.
    And what? Force them to pay points for what's essentially a complication, they now have to buy a summon, they have to probably have to get a bunch of effects on top of that to mimic the downsides of it such as teleporting where this useless summon or side kick is, they gotta disappear the moment someone decides to nullify this summon or knock him out which is crippling for a complication.

    You're basically trying to impose a rule that bans a very popular type of user of summons because you just don't like that the main character is the weaker one of the pair. this fixes nothing and just makes characters pay more for a freaking weakness, and mechanics to make it worse. /Side kicks are already limited to that because they stick around, there's no reason a temporary, only really called upon to fight, character needs that. It also does nothing to fix the issues that would come from general or broad powerful summons, again like in those examples of very common summoning archetypes.

  3. #53
    OPA Belta Nintendogeek01's Avatar
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    Re: Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition Revised: Week 5 - Powers

    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrelly-sama View Post
    The thing is that he shouldn't really even have enhanced strength in an array with wind control unless the two where from some sort of descriptor that would make that make sense. Like calling wind faries down to his fists to either help him lift or blasts things. There, I gave you a perfectly valid reason why someone would have those two in an array and why both would probably be accurate.
    If that's where you draw your line that's fine. You do you.

    But my line is while there's a few valid reasons for the strength and wind blast to be in the array, I would veto accuracy on appearing on both in the same array as twisting the flavor to justify the mechanics, and for me twisting it until it breaks.

  4. #54
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    Re: Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition Revised: Week 5 - Powers

    Quote Originally Posted by Nintendogeek01 View Post
    If that's where you draw your line that's fine. You do you.

    But my line is while there's a few valid reasons for the strength and wind blast to be in the array, I would veto accuracy on appearing on both in the same array as twisting the flavor to justify the mechanics, and for me twisting it until it breaks.
    How does it break? In either case you have a damaging power with the same descriptors and in a single array that will have them all disappear the moment it's nullified. It doesn't really have any mechanical effect difference other than targeting parry for the defense save, which is mostly meaningless since nearly everyone buys it up to the same ranks as dodge and now means you won't be able to use that version to attack at range. What you're imposing is the very definition of a concept tax by rule instead of GM decision.

  5. #55
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    Re: Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition Revised: Week 5 - Powers

    Quote Originally Posted by Nintendogeek01 View Post
    Hypothetically if someone's build has enough stuff to do without their powers a good GM might be able to throw in a story, but for a whole sweeping story it'd be very difficult.
    More like there isn't support in M&M (aside from some optional rules in Mecha & Manga) for contributing to a fight beyond the GM being generous: if the effect doesn't add a level to the "tracks" of Affliction or Damage it can't really take out an opponent by RAW. I feel it's necessary to take this into consideration when thinking about depriving characters of certain parts of their builds.

  6. #56
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    Re: Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition Revised: Week 5 - Powers

    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrelly-sama View Post
    How does it break? In either case you have a damaging power with the same descriptors and in a single array that will have them all disappear the moment it's nullified. It doesn't really have any mechanical effect difference other than targeting parry for the defense save, which is mostly meaningless since nearly everyone buys it up to the same ranks as dodge and now means you won't be able to use that version to attack at range. What you're imposing is the very definition of a concept tax by rule instead of GM decision.
    I'm kinda seeing both sides of this. With the example of wind faeries as the descriptor, it just makes sense that Accurate could apply to both the Enhanced Strength and Blast. But with some arrays (say, using Chi simply to temporarily strengthen one's muscle fibers, alongside an outright Chi blast,) I can see how that could be more questionable.

    Thing is, I would have no problem adjudicating these independently, purely due to concept and descriptors. "Yes, you can apply Accurate to powers in your Wind Faerie array. No, the way you told me your Chi powers work, the "life-seeking" accuracy of your Chi Blast can't be shared with your Chi-Boosted Muscle Growth (Enhanced Strength)... attack skill with that should be separate."

    And to my mind, it would be the Chi array that would be the weird one in that it requires an exception. Of course, I can only imagine such an array would be exceedingly rare, and if one did crop up, then if the player wanted to tweak the concept so it made sense for the Accurate to be shared, that would be fine.

    I just don't see the need for a line that would require both characters to have the same ruling on it either way. *shrug*
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  7. #57
    OPA Belta Nintendogeek01's Avatar
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    Re: Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition Revised: Week 5 - Powers

    Looking back at where the accurate discussion has steered lately I've noticed something. No mechanical changes have come up; the discussion on accurate has come down to our preferences for its application. At this point I'd like to agree to disagree, drop it, and focus back on stuff that could be mechanically changed.

    Healing

    So earlier I'd noticed that there were a number of suggestions for how healing should work differently from its current form. Sadly still busy so I'm just going to post some of the proposals I remember off the top of my head and do a quick pro/con for them. If you guys could do the same for the proposals I don't grab, or for different proposals entirely, it'd help out a lot.
    • Healing as a retroactive counter
      • Pros: Would make the DC represent the intensity of the last attack received.
      • Cons: Potentially a lot more book-keeping from the GM or Player; the potential to heal more than one condition at once becomes significantly lessened.
    • Scaling DC
      • Pros: Would represent the difficulty of healing cumulative injuries.
      • Cons: Will need to figure out by how much a condition increases the difficulty by and determine if it's still a reasonable difficulty.
    • 1-minute time-out on success at reduced cost
      • Pros: Prevents it from being spammed; same price as the base healing power with a limit.
      • Cons: Not a lot of appeal for a power that can't be used more than once-per-minute-per-target. DC may still be too easy.

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