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Thread: Honest question: Can you have an Array with an Array?

  1. #41
    Keeper of Secrets
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    Re: Honest question: Can you have an Array with an Array?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ysariel View Post
    I do get this, and this is one of those cases where personally, I would tell the player that they need to pay max+14 pp. I was disagreeing with pawsplay's assertion that nested arrays are always abusive. I assume always abusive means always abusive, as in every circumstance and build. As this points out, there needs to be fairly specific circumstances before it becomes significantly problematic: the number of slots needs to be high, a minority of slots must be much more expensive than the others, and the benefit from reducing the array's total cost must outweigh having more pp to spend in each slot. Of course, other GM's can rule however they like.
    Well, the problem is its always abusive--in the sense that it saves points that the more straightforward (and apparently intended) method won't for no meaningful loss in capability. Its just a question of how abusive; in weak cases you'll only save 2-4 points, but there often becomes no reason not to do that if its permitted. It essentially manufactures points out of thin air just because the character happened to have one big slot in his array that he otherwise wasn't capable of utilizing all the points of on the rest of the array (or that he just didn't feel the need).

  2. #42
    Hierophant FuzzyBoots's Avatar
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    Re: Honest question: Can you have an Array with an Array?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkdreamer View Post
    Well, the problem is its always abusive--in the sense that it saves points that the more straightforward (and apparently intended) method won't for no meaningful loss in capability. Its just a question of how abusive; in weak cases you'll only save 2-4 points, but there often becomes no reason not to do that if its permitted. It essentially manufactures points out of thin air just because the character happened to have one big slot in his array that he otherwise wasn't capable of utilizing all the points of on the rest of the array (or that he just didn't feel the need).
    And I think that's where we simply disagree for the "always abusive" label. We've provided examples where it isn't necessarily abusive because it creates limitations. You've provided counter-examples where it's obviously abusive. Probably little wonder that we have a difference of opinion here.

  3. #43
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    Re: Honest question: Can you have an Array with an Array?

    Quote Originally Posted by kenseido View Post
    Not even remotely close to the same thing.

    What is the meaningful difference between switching to an array slot, and switching to a subarray slot?

  4. #44
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    Re: Honest question: Can you have an Array with an Array?

    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyBoots View Post
    And I think that's where we simply disagree for the "always abusive" label. We've provided examples where it isn't necessarily abusive because it creates limitations. You've provided counter-examples where it's obviously abusive. Probably little wonder that we have a difference of opinion here.
    Yeah, but you go down that road and you start getting into the people who think Arrays are, themselves, abusive. That's why I'm basing it on what I think (with, I think, good support) the way arrays are supposed to be used. I think its the only solid ground you can base it on that gets beyond "The GM doesn't like it." After all, are the limitations, in practice, functional rather than theoretical limitations?

  5. #45
    Hierophant FuzzyBoots's Avatar
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    Re: Honest question: Can you have an Array with an Array?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkdreamer View Post
    Yeah, but you go down that road and you start getting into the people who think Arrays are, themselves, abusive. That's why I'm basing it on what I think (with, I think, good support) the way arrays are supposed to be used. I think its the only solid ground you can base it on that gets beyond "The GM doesn't like it." After all, are the limitations, in practice, functional rather than theoretical limitations?
    {nods} And some of us are countering with (what we think is good support) why the system allows for nested arrays. So in the end, I feel that you don't get "clearly abusive" but "possibly abusive", the same as arrays in general, Flaws, and other such methods of reducing the points spent.

    We might be in violent agreement that it's subject to abuse, but that usage is not inherently abusive and counter to the rules.

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