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Thread: Honest question: Can you have an Array with an Array?

  1. #61
    Hierophant FuzzyBoots's Avatar
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    Re: Honest question: Can you have an Array with an Array?

    Quote Originally Posted by pawsplay View Post
    No, he can take a move action to turn into either his demon form, or an array of elemental forms. He can switch between the elemental forms as a free action.
    Right. Which is basically the same as the other guy, except that the point allocation among the slots is different. Unless, again, he's choosing for each of his array slots to have a Move action to activate?
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  2. #62
    Keeper of Secrets
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    Re: Honest question: Can you have an Array with an Array?

    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyBoots View Post
    Heh, and funnily enough, that same line of reasoning would essentially state that "Green Ronin thought Metamorph was a bad idea and should not be used" because it really does not show up in builds. You know, despite it being part of the core rules set out.
    I'd think that actually is defensible, actually. And much for the same reason; it exists for uses where you absolutely can't make the situation work any other way, but it usually dodgy.

    (In the case of Metamorph, its basically an acknowledgment that the questionable elements are already doable anyway; once you can put combined powers in an array slot--and that's been clear at least back from the sorcerer archetype in 2e--you could do something virtually indistinguishable in most cases anyway just by making literally everything that wasn't a power an Enhanced Trait and shoving it in one Array slot. It'd be an astonishingly messy looking character, but barring attributes below 10 it'd be indistinguishable from a Metamorph build).

    I'm perfectly cool with the idea that you disapprove of nesting arrays because, in your mind, the only use is point-shaving.
    That's actually a misrepresentation of my view; I think there are conceptual reasons to do them and some approaches to certain types of characters that are next to impossible to do in anything but an incredibly muddy way any other way. I just think that you should be damn good and sure you that's the case, because there is a balance problem with the whole approach, and there is cheese built into the mechanic. This is more a case of thinking you shouldn't kid yourself about that, anymore than you should with a few other concepts, and make sure there's no other way to do it. Its not any different than the fact there are other conceptual builds that either are problems looking for a way to happen or that do things that are kind of intrinsically problematic (telepaths with accurate detect minds for example).

    I think you missed the fact that way back in the day I did let one of my players do the "array of alternate forms with arrays" thing.

    I disagree with you that the rules state that it's not valid or that it not being used in the archetypes (which are simple builds that have been repeatedly pointed out as not being polished builds) means something. And again, I think we reached this point within the second page of this discussion, that it's a personal choice.
    I think you're using a term here (valid) in a way I wouldn't for reasons I've explained above. Something can be "valid" and still generally "a bad idea." Full PL characters with complete concealment and subtle blasts are "valid" in a rules sense.

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