War between two houses in adjacent regions.

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Ileryios of Braavos
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War between two houses in adjacent regions.

Post by Ileryios of Braavos » Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:03 pm

example: Westerlands and Riverlands. Legal or no? in times of peace of course.

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Re: War between two houses in adjacent regions.

Post by Canarr » Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:32 am

There's been some discussion on the subject in this thread:

http://www.greenronin.com/phpBB2/viewto ... 51#p140051

Although that's for a feud between banner houses of the same liege lord. Personally, I don't believe that either the Lannisters or the Tullys would allow once of their vassals to take up arms against a vassal of another Great House. Because if that happens, someone is breaking the King's Peace; for a Westerland lord, that means either the Lannisters "let" one of their bannermen break the peace, or they don't have full control of their subordinates. Neither is a picture that Tywin Lannister would be particularly happy to project, methinks.

So, to answer your question: no, it wouldn't be legal. Who gets punished, and how, would depend on the circumstances of the houses involved - and who can bring which allies to bear for their cause.

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Re: War between two houses in adjacent regions.

Post by shonuff » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:16 am

I think in general war between two houses would be illegal, regardless of region. But the punishment would depend on the strength of all involved.

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Re: War between two houses in adjacent regions.

Post by Gurkhal » Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:02 am

As I see it it usually comes down to what the claim or cause of the attacker is. If someone says "Their son raped and killed my daughter!" that's an honorable case for war if its proved to be true, while saying "I want their stuff!" is not an honorable case. And then the liege, there' always a liege involved, may decided to accept the claim for the attack or to call it breaking the King's Peace and turn against the attacker. And if say both the Lannisters and Tullys will back their respective bannerman, as they probably would, it would go to the crown, which if we're talking about Robert will most surely end with a settlement in the Lannisters' favor.

But there also a choice in the case of the Westerlands and Riverlands that the Lannisters and Tullys will meet to discuess the matter, let it go on if they don't care at all about it, or take it to the crown for settlement. Or the crown may decided to interfiere anyway regardless of what the Great Houses do and think.

Lets not forget that its entirely possible for two Great Houses, or other Houses, to give covert support to their bannermen as they maul each other while holding off a settlement and thus fight a war by pseudo-proxy if they would feel inclined for that. It could certainly allow them to settle scores without creating the major racket of two whole regions going to war with each other.

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Re: War between two houses in adjacent regions.

Post by Paedrig » Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:11 am

It might also be important WHERE this whole feud did occur. If it happen in a more remote area (and Westeros has plenty of them), perhaps in mountain terrain, than there is certainly more free space so to speak, than if it happened f. e. where a main road cross the border between Westlands and Riverlands...

Also the scale of warfare might play a role. An allout invasion and siege of a fortress will most certainly drawn attention, while small scale warfare (raids, ambushes etc.) which are perhaps even conducted without banners and a clear identification of the attackers, left room for denial.

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Re: War between two houses in adjacent regions.

Post by Breschau » Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:12 am

During the reign of King Aerys I the Greyjoys were busy raiding the coast, bringing Houses Lannister and Stark against them.

I'd say there's clearly enough latitude to say if it makes for an interesting game it is certainly possible. In medieval France, with a weak central government, there were occasions of warfare between regions of France and I read in the thread linked above the same was true within the Holy Roman Empire.

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Re: War between two houses in adjacent regions.

Post by Paedrig » Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:15 am

Certainly the question what king is in power play a big role. A strong King (and/or a Hand) or a strong Lord of a Great House would have means to prevent feuds. But during Roberts time (f. e.) it seemed that there were no greater military clashes...
Beside the Greyjoy Rebellion, of course. And we all did know how THIS ended...

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Re: War between two houses in adjacent regions.

Post by Gurkhal » Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:17 am

Paedrig wrote:Certainly the question what king is in power play a big role. A strong King (and/or a Hand) or a strong Lord of a Great House would have means to prevent feuds. But during Roberts time (f. e.) it seemed that there were no greater military clashes...
Beside the Greyjoy Rebellion, of course. And we all did know how THIS ended...
While this is true I would expect there to have been some minor skirmished despite of the general peace.

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Re: War between two houses in adjacent regions.

Post by Canarr » Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:17 am

Paedrig wrote:Certainly the question what king is in power play a big role. A strong King (and/or a Hand) or a strong Lord of a Great House would have means to prevent feuds. But during Roberts time (f. e.) it seemed that there were no greater military clashes...
Beside the Greyjoy Rebellion, of course. And we all did know how THIS ended...
That IS the problem, I think. Robert doesn't really want to deal with all the unpleasant aspects of being King - and having to intervene in a small regional conflict would certainly be among those aspects. So, he'll either ignore it, or - if the problem proves too big to ignore - he'll come down on it like a ton of bricks and smash it as quickly as possible, so he can go back to drinking and whoring.

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Re: War between two houses in adjacent regions.

Post by shonuff » Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:24 am

Of course, there could also be a general peace because there wasn't that much to fight about... Dorne was waiting for dragons, Lannister & Stark had control over their realms, the houses of the Vale seemed both isolationist and obedient to the Arryns (and they had close ties to their neighbors).

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Re: War between two houses in adjacent regions.

Post by Gurkhal » Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:59 am

shonuff wrote:Of course, there could also be a general peace because there wasn't that much to fight about... Dorne was waiting for dragons, Lannister & Stark had control over their realms, the houses of the Vale seemed both isolationist and obedient to the Arryns (and they had close ties to their neighbors).
But just because the Great Houses don't have an issue with each other don't mean that the smaller Houses don't either want to screw over each other.

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Re: War between two houses in adjacent regions.

Post by shonuff » Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:06 pm

Gurkhal wrote:
shonuff wrote:Of course, there could also be a general peace because there wasn't that much to fight about... Dorne was waiting for dragons, Lannister & Stark had control over their realms, the houses of the Vale seemed both isolationist and obedient to the Arryns (and they had close ties to their neighbors).
But just because the Great Houses don't have an issue with each other don't mean that the smaller Houses don't either want to screw over each other.
Very true, but the Lannisters and Starks have almost complete control over their bannermen. And the houses of the Vale seem so subservient to House Arryn that I wouldn't imagine that they'd attack a neighbor - especially with House Arryn being so close to Tully and Stark. That, and the houses of the Vale seem a little isolationist.

Of course, exceptions could easily exist, but I think that in general the peace of Robert's reign wasn't because of him crushing the Greyjoys but rather because overall the great houses controlled their lands and there wasn't much to (overtly) fight over.

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Re: War between two houses in adjacent regions.

Post by Paedrig » Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:48 am

Wasn't it so that is was said once, that there was nothing what Robert liked more, than crushing rebelious vassals?

But I agree that certainly during Roberts reign most of the big houses seem not to be interested in feuds (beside the Greyjoy >:) ). The last civil war and the chaos of Aerys last years short (relatively) before might have played a role in this...

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Re: War between two houses in adjacent regions.

Post by Gurkhal » Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:17 am

Paedrig wrote:Wasn't it so that is was said once, that there was nothing what Robert liked more, than crushing rebelious vassals?

But I agree that certainly during Roberts reign most of the big houses seem not to be interested in feuds (beside the Greyjoy >:) ). The last civil war and the chaos of Aerys last years short (relatively) before might have played a role in this...
Well, I don't know. In Dunk and Egg the petty lords are all gunning for each other despite having the Blackfyre Rebellion in fresh memory and despite having kings who supposedly ruled "in peace".

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Re: War between two houses in adjacent regions.

Post by Paedrig » Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:06 am

But this seem to be a very weak (and peacefull) king as i have read this (allthough with a strong - but very unpopular - Hand). And of course the Blackfyre Rebellion was (as history - and also the book you mention) told us, not done this time. Instead the problem went on for some decades as far as i know (did not Barristan Selmy killed the last descendent of the rebelious line?).
Robert on the other hand was certainly a bad king - but i do not think he was a weak one. Beside the Greyjoy Rebellion his reign was stable and his throne was never as contested as in some times before (or of course after his death).

So if the whole scenario here should happen during Roberts reign (and not in a very remote area of the border between Riverlands and Westlands) i would argue for mostly small scale/secret warfare than for 'real' allout invasions or sieges: disguised troops, quick raids, using of mercs/brigands etc.
And of course intrigues (propably by both sides) to show the big houses (or even the king) that the other house had 'broken the peace of the king'/ is a traitor etc.
Endless possibilities... >:)

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Re: War between two houses in adjacent regions.

Post by Canarr » Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:40 am

I'm with Paedrig on that one: any sign of open warfare would quickly bring Robert's wrath down on anyone involved - and in my opinion of Robert as King, he's likely to just march in with a larger force, smack down anyone not laying down arms willingly (and quickly), then sort out the questions of guilt and innocence afterwards.

Alternatively, I could see him - or Lord Arryn - sending urgent messages to the Lords Lannister and Tyrell: "We've heard of that nonsense your bannermen are perpetrating. You have a week to cease all hostilities, and a month to bring both parties before me in King's Landing to rule on this. Or else. In the meantime, I'll be hunting."

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Re: War between two houses in adjacent regions.

Post by Gurkhal » Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:36 am

Paedrig wrote:But this seem to be a very weak (and peacefull) king as i have read this (allthough with a strong - but very unpopular - Hand). And of course the Blackfyre Rebellion was (as history - and also the book you mention) told us, not done this time. Instead the problem went on for some decades as far as i know (did not Barristan Selmy killed the last descendent of the rebelious line?).
Robert on the other hand was certainly a bad king - but i do not think he was a weak one. Beside the Greyjoy Rebellion his reign was stable and his throne was never as contested as in some times before (or of course after his death).

So if the whole scenario here should happen during Roberts reign (and not in a very remote area of the border between Riverlands and Westlands) i would argue for mostly small scale/secret warfare than for 'real' allout invasions or sieges: disguised troops, quick raids, using of mercs/brigands etc.
And of course intrigues (propably by both sides) to show the big houses (or even the king) that the other house had 'broken the peace of the king'/ is a traitor etc.
Endless possibilities... >:)
Wasn't really the Blackfyre Rebellions I was thinking about. More like that Osgrey and Webber etc. Small Houses clashing without much notice from the bigger lords.

Also I doubt that either Jon Arryn or Robert would be so confrontial with the Lannisters and Tywin. More like it they would just side with the Lion and that would be it. Possibly Arryn would attempt some sort of neutral stance but never Robert.

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Re: War between two houses in adjacent regions.

Post by Baldrick » Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:12 am

The laws of the land may prohibit vassals taking up arms against each other, but that doesn't mean it will never happen. What is Law anyway, if not only the threat of force from some higher authority against a lower authority, or an individual. Say two neighbouring houses start to squabble. A skirmish between a group of knights from each house takes place, and several are killed. Technically they have broken the law but what would be done about it? The lords of those houses would initially probably just get warned to stop fighting, with the implicit threat that they will be stripped of their lands and titles if it continues. But would their liege really want to carry out this threat? I think they would prefer it to end through negotiation and would take a lot of pushing before calling up the banners to slap down their disobedient vassals.

[EDIT]

One more thing - in a feudal system, the liege doesn't have that much direct power. His power comes from the oaths of fealty made to him by his vassals. It's kind of like the United Nations. It has laws but they can only be enforced by member states who are willing to put armies in the field to uphold a UN resolution. For a liege to slap down one of his vassals, he has to call on other vassals to do it, and they might not be so willing to intervene in some petty squabble. The liege has to take account of the rights and wrongs of the case before taking such drastic steps, and it may be better to just turn a blind eye.

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Re: War between two houses in adjacent regions.

Post by Paedrig » Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:28 am

On the other hand, if the liege lord is to lax and his vassals can get into feuds as the like he might look weak and an easy prey. Plus an feud beyond region lines can quickly get out of hand/draw attention of much bigger players (may it be because it interferes with their policy or is seen as a good excuse for aggressive measures)
Plus the problem which will occur if the liege lord than must muster an army (in an state of real big scale emergency) of vassals who are
a) perhaps deeply divided because on-going feuds between them
or
b) heavily involved in feuds with other houses of other liege lord
and
c) did know that their liege lord has not enough power (or willingness) to deal feuds quickly.
What than will happen if their main troops are away and their old 'friends' get a little bit adventures?

Of course such an example like you mentioned (a little bloodshed between some knights) might be not worth a harsh reaction - if not there is a thread that this goes out of hand quickly. However if than reprisal actions are started (and than against reprisal-reprisal- actions... >:) ).
Feuds which went on for generations (and cost a lot of blood and money) were started over absolutely trivial things.
In the end it depends mostly on the local and regional situation and the power of the vassals/liege lords.

But a liege lord who want to appear strong should have an cautious eye on any feud - and do his best to get the situation under control (if it not suits his politics to let things go their own way).

But as Machiavelli said (he did it, or?) it is safer for an lord to be feared than loved. A strong liege lord might have his own problems - but not so much than one who appears weak/unenergetic/uninterested in the securing of order and control.

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Re: War between two houses in adjacent regions.

Post by ceranko » Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:39 am

It would depend on how powerful the Houses are and if they are directly related to their Liege Lord or the King. As well as what their opinion of the houses are. If they are both petty houses the lords may not care, and they see it as a culling of the heard of lesser nobleman and their peasants. But if one house or both are really powerful he may stay out of it or demand a trial in public to settle the dispute or pay a fine to the wronged house. It really depends. And if you have angered your overlord he may even side with and help fund the battle so he can be rid of the offending noble.

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