three men who might beat Jaime Lannister in a fight

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three men who might beat Jaime Lannister in a fight

Post by jlarson » Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:38 am

In the second season of The Game of Thrones, Jaime Lannister is taunting Brienne of Tarth, and says there are three men who might be able to beat him in a fight. Who are these men?

Jaime's fight with Eddard was inconclusive, but Eddard is dead at that point, so he's out.

Candidates:
1. Barristan Selmy
2. Loras Tyrell, the Knight of Flowers
3. The Mountain
4. The Hound

Anyone else?

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Re: three men who might beat Jaime Lannister in a fight

Post by nmastalerz » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:46 am

Well he doesn't necessarily say hey could beat him, just that they'd stand a chance. I believe in the books he says Greatjon Umber, Sandor and Gregor - those are the living. I believe the people who are dead refers to is Ser Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, and Robert in his prime. But in the books he is referring to people stronger than him, and he says how he has more skill and speed then all of them and would defeat them. The show kind of twists the line because in the books this is something going on in his thoughts.

Although the question of who could actually beat him is much different than who he THINKS could. Jaime thinks he is better than everyone, but who knows how the real fights would turn out. In the books he also never fights Ned, Ned breaks his leg while on top of his horse - not by a spear during a fight with Jaime. There are a lot of interesting matchups between the living and dead, people in their prime, etc. The one thing to take note of is that Jaime never really had accomplished anything worth note in his life compared to the likes of Selmy, etc. Yet he is known throughout Westeros as being the best fighter, it is pretty much acknowledged by everyone.

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Re: three men who might beat Jaime Lannister in a fight

Post by Gurkhal » Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:00 pm

I don't recall Jaime ever mentioning Greatjon as someone who could beat him.

In regards to ser Jaime's skills there's a lot to say about it. He does however NEVER fight with Eddard and if he did Eddard would be dead in five seconds. In the books Jaime leaves his men to chastise Eddard by killing his men and tells them not to harm lord Stark, so Eddard is kind of fighting with a safety net there.

Also I would say that prior to being one-handed Jaime has done plenty of stuff. He's smashed the Riverlords two times in a row, he almost kills Robb Stark during the Whispering Wood before his sword gets struck in the neck of one of the Karstark sons, he seems to have won plenty of tourneys, and while a teen he crossed swords with the Smiling Knight. All of these would point to Jaime being a very skilled fighter who has been put to the test and came out approved.

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Re: three men who might beat Jaime Lannister in a fight

Post by Paedrig » Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:39 am

I agree with you that he must be certainly a very good figter - obviously one of the best in Westeros. In tourneys AND in real fight (allthough it might be different who is the top in tourneys and in real close combat). F. e. Loras might be an excellent tourney knight but i am a little bit sceptical (like Jaime himself) about his chances in a real battle.

If whe search for FIGHTER (not only MEN) who could win against Jaime, Brienne might also have a chance. She won against Ser Loras (who had beaten Ser Jaime before) in tourney, and she was an able match for Jaime (although he was not in a good shape when they duelled).

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Re: three men who might beat Jaime Lannister in a fight

Post by phild » Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:46 am

Jaime refers to Greatjon being STRONGER than him, but not that he could beat him.

If he does refer to 3 people (and I'm not sure, but if he does) I'm sure the Hound is one of them. Gregor Clegane and Barristan Selmy might be up there, but I would think that Jaime would probably discount both because of their relatively lack of agility and age, respectively. Garlan Tyrell might be one of the three, as he's renowned as a swordsman (Loras is known as a jouster, not a melee fighter). Quite a few people on the ASOIAF forums have a bit of a thing for Darkstar, but how familiar Jaime would be of him I don't know.

I suspect it's a throw away comment meant more to illustrate Jaime's belief in his ability than to suggest GRRM has a secret list of "Top Ten Fighters" pinned above his bed. Indeed, the fan's opinion of Jaime Lannister is a pet hate of mine. I don't doubt he's a good swordsman - a very good one - but most of this stuff about him being one of the greatest ever comes almost entirely from his own testimony.

Finally, for a more literal answer, any three half decent fighters could beat Jaime Lannister in a fight. ASOIAF is a fairly gritty, realistic world, and in reality it's impossible to defend against three people at once.

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Re: three men who might beat Jaime Lannister in a fight

Post by Paedrig » Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:11 am

Yeah, but this is not the point.
It was the question who could beat him one on one.
Against a (coordinated) group of talented fighters he would probably loose very quick - but this is the same with most other famous pc and npc fighters.

But I would still think that Jaime is in fact one of the top fighters - at least if his standing in the tourneys have some meaning. He might be certainly a little bit overconfident, thats for shure - but he has at least some reasons.

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Re: three men who might beat Jaime Lannister in a fight

Post by Gurkhal » Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:34 am

phild wrote: I suspect it's a throw away comment meant more to illustrate Jaime's belief in his ability than to suggest GRRM has a secret list of "Top Ten Fighters" pinned above his bed. Indeed, the fan's opinion of Jaime Lannister is a pet hate of mine. I don't doubt he's a good swordsman - a very good one - but most of this stuff about him being one of the greatest ever comes almost entirely from his own testimony.
True that it is mostly Jaime, but both Brienne and Barristan also thinks highly of Jaime's skills. So I would think that he objectively is among the greatest fighters there is in Westeros.

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Re: three men who might beat Jaime Lannister in a fight

Post by Addicted2aa » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:23 am

Gurkhal wrote:
phild wrote: I suspect it's a throw away comment meant more to illustrate Jaime's belief in his ability than to suggest GRRM has a secret list of "Top Ten Fighters" pinned above his bed. Indeed, the fan's opinion of Jaime Lannister is a pet hate of mine. I don't doubt he's a good swordsman - a very good one - but most of this stuff about him being one of the greatest ever comes almost entirely from his own testimony.
True that it is mostly Jaime, but both Brienne and Barristan also thinks highly of Jaime's skills. So I would think that he objectively is among the greatest fighters there is in Westeros.
Something worth noting, Jamie and those who speak of his prowess are all pretty much nobles. Nobles have a tendency to only know and regard other nobles for things. This means the majority of the population, the peasants, aren't going to be factored into any conversation. Now, most peasants probably can't fight, only a small percentage will be gaurds, soldiers, or mercs. However that small percentage will still be a much larger population than the nobles. So will be more talented individuals in this pool, based on sheer numbers. They will have worse nutrition and less luxury to spend time training. However many will be fighting in life or death scenarios more often giving them greater experience on that field. In the end it's probably a wash as to which group is likely to have a better pool of fighters at the top end. However it does mean that there is a large section of fighting men who are not taken into account when discussing who is better than whom. If this argument hasn't convinced you, consider that by cannon, one of the deadliest men we've met is Bronn, who is just another mercenary. He may be one of the best or he just be merely competent.

As such this idea that there are only 3 men that can beat Jamie in Westeros seems remarkably far fetched. For one thing, in a fight the winner is not always the better fighter, simply the better fighter "that day." Another, Jamie is notoriously arrogant and likely to be surrounded by ass kissers due to his position. So even if he is trying to be humble and honest he is likely overestimating his own ability. Add on his inability to take into account the lower classes and what you have is a man who is likely very good at his job, but no where near the best. He is more of a Paul Pierce than a Lebron or Jordan, More a David Beckham than a Messi or Ronaldo.

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Re: three men who might beat Jaime Lannister in a fight

Post by Paedrig » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:34 am

This might be so we could perhaps say that there might be only three KNOWN men (or perhaps a little bit more) who can beat him. But to speculate (although perhaps rightfully) that there MIGHT be others would not change much to the rumours and sayings about his abilities and standing so to speak.

Also if you compare lowborn fighters with noble one do not forget that the last one are also certainly better equipped - better armor and weapons (propably castle forged, some even valyrian), horses etc.
OK Bronn did beat the better armed knight in his fight for Tyrions fate, but this is most propably an exception.
The wounds of noble born are also treated better so there is a lesser chance to get maimed etc.

In the end (given also the fact that the pool of fulltime high class soldiers is certainly very limited) the number of first rate lowborn fighters who might have a chance one to one might be smaller than one would think if you compare the numbers...

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Re: three men who might beat Jaime Lannister in a fight

Post by nmastalerz » Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:36 am

My point was that in the line in the show is based off the books but not the same. In the books he does not speak of 3 men who can take him in a fight. He talks about the three men who are stronger than him. And those who were dead/past their prime as well. When he speaks of strength he is speaking to those oh could possibly hold their own against him, strength playing a huge part in sword fighting, he is speaking that aside from those stronger than him (Greatjon, Clegane Brothers, Strongboar) he would overpower everyone else easily, but his speed and skill would allow him to overmatch even the Cleganes and Greatjon.

So basically he is saying nobody can stand a chance against him, only three men have him beat in strength and he overmatched them in speed an skill.

Now three categories come into play when you talk about a head to head matchup. Strength, speed, and skill. If we are to believe Jaime's vision of himself he is much better than anyone in all categories, only a few men being stronger.

Selmy? Clearly past his prime, his strength and speed is much less than Jaime. While his skill and technique is great, I don't see him being able to take Jaime.

Ned? Well they never fought in the books, that was only in the show. I think Ned actually admits in the books Jaime would have the better of him in a fight.

Oberyn? Possibly. Fast and technical, but Jaime is supposedly faster and more skills, and much stronger.

Drogo? Who knows really?

There are many men you can put up against Jaime from past and present. But an important thing to remember that vital to his character in the books is that Jaime thinks of himself very highly, and after one event all that changes. He is very humbled, realizing he hasn't accomplished much of anything in his life. The image of Jaime is one thing, and that is all he ever really had, a reputation.

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Re: three men who might beat Jaime Lannister in a fight

Post by Addicted2aa » Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:19 pm

Well, once you cross the seas, we have a whole new cast and that changes even more. There's strong belwas, whoever the current best braavosi is, That merc captain dany is sleeping with, and probably a lot more I've forgotten.

That last point is crucial though, Jamie has never fought in a real war till now and he has always had an inflated self worth.

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Re: three men who might beat Jaime Lannister in a fight

Post by Ser Ulfric » Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:57 pm

One who could match Jamie in his own Words is Ser Lyle Crakehall - The Strongboar.

"Ser Jaime Lannister regards him as one of the strongest living men in Westeros when thinking of who could match him in a fight." - in A Storm of Swords, Chapter 21, Jaime

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Re: three men who might beat Jaime Lannister in a fight

Post by devilsgrin » Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:44 pm

lets not forget Garlan Tyrell. Loras himself admits that Garlan is superior to him with a sword... Loras' skills favour tourney fighting - spears, riding, etc... Ser Garlan could challenge Jaime.

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Re: three men who might beat Jaime Lannister in a fight

Post by omegonthesane » Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:33 am

Ned was explicitly made a more dangerous fighter for the show, in the books he really wasn't a notable combatant.

Here was I thinking this was going to be a set of starting character statlines that could plausibly defeat the officially statted Jaime Lannister by the rules as written.

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Re: three men who might beat Jaime Lannister in a fight

Post by Gurkhal » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:08 am

Here's my list

Barristan Selmy
Sandor Clegane
Oberyn Martell (as much as I hate it the guys's pretty skilled)

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Re: three men who might beat Jaime Lannister in a fight

Post by Ser Ulfric » Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:58 pm

omegonthesane wrote:Ned was explicitly made a more dangerous fighter for the show, in the books he really wasn't a notable combatant.

Here was I thinking this was going to be a set of starting character statlines that could plausibly defeat the officially statted Jaime Lannister by the rules as written.

I would Think the same, and I dont want ned as an expert fighter. Though - didnt he kill Arthur Dayne? Whent and Gerold Hightower Went down too, and that was in the time when the Kingsguard had the best fighters in the kingdoms right?

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Re: three men who might beat Jaime Lannister in a fight

Post by phild » Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:57 am

Ser Ulfric wrote:
omegonthesane wrote:Ned was explicitly made a more dangerous fighter for the show, in the books he really wasn't a notable combatant.

Here was I thinking this was going to be a set of starting character statlines that could plausibly defeat the officially statted Jaime Lannister by the rules as written.

I would Think the same, and I dont want ned as an expert fighter. Though - didnt he kill Arthur Dayne? Whent and Gerold Hightower Went down too, and that was in the time when the Kingsguard had the best fighters in the kingdoms right?
There were 7, including Ned and Howland Reed, against 3 Kingsguard. Only Ned and Reed survived.
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tower_of_Joy

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Re: three men who might beat Jaime Lannister in a fight

Post by stew31r » Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:10 am

True, but Ned also states that if it wasn't for Reed, Arthur Dayne would have killed him. Because of that, I'm one of the many that is of the opinion that Reed somehow wounded or distracted Dayne enough for Ned to kill him. How Reed would managed it is a discussion in and of itself.

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Re: three men who might beat Jaime Lannister in a fight

Post by phild » Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:51 pm

stew31r wrote:True, but Ned also states that if it wasn't for Reed, Arthur Dayne would have killed him. Because of that, I'm one of the many that is of the opinion that Reed somehow wounded or distracted Dayne enough for Ned to kill him. How Reed would managed it is a discussion in and of itself.
Nothing in that statement that says Ned killed Dayne. If Reed killed Dayne, the statement would be equally true.

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Re: three men who might beat Jaime Lannister in a fight

Post by vonpenguin » Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:00 am

Ned was probably quite a good fighter overall, but not one that would would be counted among the best of his day. I've just finished the first book and he had so few fight scenes, none in detail, and only in the flashback was he not massively outnumbered (and there he was presumably fighting 3 of the best swordsmen alive at the time).

No matter who killed Dayne it was a victory for both Reed and Stark, Dayne probably would have gotten either in a duel or even if they were just a tiny bit worse if we assume he was as good as implied.

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Re: three men who might beat Jaime Lannister in a fight

Post by tetnak » Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:50 pm

Gurkhal wrote:Here's my list

Barristan Selmy
Sandor Clegane
Oberyn Martell (as much as I hate it the guys's pretty skilled)
Unfortunately, I think no on Selmy. I think maybe on Sandor, and I think no on Oberyn (sans poison).

Selmy might be different in his prime, but certainly in the time of Game of Thrones, no -- in Dance of Dragons the gladiator that he fights in Dany's bedroom makes contact with his armor repeatedly -- but his weapon was unsuitable to fight against heavy armor.

Gregor, in addition, might have had the strength and skill combination to overwhelm Jaime. However, as we saw with Oberyn and Gregor -- he might be WAY to slow. I do believe Oberyn is going to be a lot faster than Jaime though, due partly to Jaime wearing heavy armor and Oberyn not. That might make Jaime easier to hit for someone like Gregor. Fights cannot be something like = Jaime > Oberyn > Gregor. Different people fight different.

There's other people to consider as well, like Strong Belwas and Thoros of Myr, for instance. Without putting much thought into it, I doubt either would top Jamie either. Garlan Tyrell is another good choice, but at the time of the books he's not particularly experienced in real combat where Jaime is far more seasoned. Loras is probably not good enough with a sword, his specialty was the joust ...

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Re: three men who might beat Jaime Lannister in a fight

Post by nmastalerz » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:31 pm

Keep in mind, this is the three men Jaime thinks could beat him in a fight. Reality is much different I think, whether he was as good as he thinks he is or not is really never proven either way. Not to mention anything can happen in a duel, and match-ups do matter (think of Khrazz vs. Selmy, Khrazz was just as fast as any many Selmy had ever seen as well as stronger and younger. But Selmy wore plate armor and was more composed while Khrazz was confused and frustrated).

I think the people who I would say would give Jaime a run for his money would be:
Garlan Tyrell, the Clegane Brothers, Bronn, Selmy, Ser Lyle Crakehall, Oberyn, Greatjon, Strong Belwas, Daario, Khal Drago, Victarion Greyjoy, and many other great fighters. Brienne beats Jaime with ease, granted thats after hes been starved and held prisoner for a long time, but she still beat him down easily. Selmy says Jaime was a great talent, but only Jaime really considers himself to be hands down the best in the world. He has never really done anything to prove that he is that good, he won some tournament melees, and he crossed swords with the Smiling Knight (Arthur Dayne was the one who killed him). Aside from that the only notable thing he really did was take out a bunch of guys in the Whispering Wood, but it's not like any of them were that great of fighters.

One of the things about ASoIaF that's always kind of annoyed me was that their aren't really any epic duels like you hear about in the history. Arthur Dayne vs the Smiling Knight, Ser Gwayne Corbray vs. Daemon Blackfyre, etc. We never really see top talent vs top talent except for the Viper vs. the Mountain. So how good was Jaime really? We know how good he thought he was, and we know how good his family thinks he is. But I am sure there are many men who would disagree with that and would be able to stand toe to toe with him. Fact is that he lost a hand, and the only duel he had a chance for since was against the Blackfish, which Jaime backed down from. If ASoIaF tells us anything, is that there are many ways to defeat a man without ever drawing a sword yourself. Robb Stark never lose a battle, and was slain in a hall at a wedding without ever being able to draw steel. Oberyn beat a man in a fight and ended up losing his life when his emotions got the better of him. Tywin Lannister controlled Westeros and was killed by his dwarf son, who was sentenced to die, while taking a shit.

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Re: three men who might beat Jaime Lannister in a fight

Post by pwbrian » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:44 pm

nmastalerz wrote:Brienne beats Jaime with ease, granted thats after hes been starved and held prisoner for a long time, but she still beat him down easily.
Brienne doesn't beat him easily. There's a whole bit about how well he was fighting and how difficult he was to beat, despite his being handicapped (Imprisonment, starvation, manacles, etc..). I think that's one of the points in the books where Jaime really shines as a fighter. We know Brienne is a capable combatant, and yet Jaime holds his own even with all of the setbacks he had.

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Re: three men who might beat Jaime Lannister in a fight

Post by nmastalerz » Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:20 pm

pwbrian wrote:
nmastalerz wrote:Brienne beats Jaime with ease, granted thats after hes been starved and held prisoner for a long time, but she still beat him down easily.
Brienne doesn't beat him easily. There's a whole bit about how well he was fighting and how difficult he was to beat, despite his being handicapped (Imprisonment, starvation, manacles, etc..). I think that's one of the points in the books where Jaime really shines as a fighter. We know Brienne is a capable combatant, and yet Jaime holds his own even with all of the setbacks he had.
What bit are you speaking of? Because if I remember correctly he goes after her trying to to kill her, she parrys him away for a while saying she won't hurt him. He keeps talking smack and thinking about how he will kill her, then she finally presses the attack and beats him down telling him to yield.

I don't really know how he fought well or shined... She clearly didn't want to hurt him and basically just back pedaled and parried him the entire time, and as soon as she pressed the attack towards him his whole monologue was about how shes stronger than him and how tired he was. That is actually the monologue where he talks about the men who were stronger than him, but with speed and skill he would beat them all. The only part of that fight where it says anything good about how well he fought was the beginning of the fight where HE is thinking and saying how fast hes attacking and how he will kill her. Like I said, as soon as she actually started to fight he was just beat down pretty easily.

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Re: three men who might beat Jaime Lannister in a fight

Post by ceranko » Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:32 am

Jamie has lost his sword arm so most men could probably beat him now. Therefore he is no longer a legend with a sword.

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