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  • Question about Limits and Extras

    Hey all,

    Regarding Limits - do they apply to any powers bought as Extras, or only the "core" power?

    EX:
    I buy Blast, with the Limit "Only Works In Daylight".
    Using the Limit, I pick up Flight as an Extra for Blast for free.

    Does Flight also share the "Only Works in Daylight" Limit carried by Blast?

    If not, is it possible to add the Limit to Flight as well?

    If so, what would be the benefit (if any)? Would I be able to pick up another Extra, increase a Power value, etc?

  • #2
    Re: Question about Limits and Extras

    I hate this answer, but the honest answer is "It depends"

    With the Limit only on the one power, technically you could use the power and everything except the Blast would work if you were not in daylight.

    It sounds like you want them linked because the Blast is the source the powers the Flight as well. In that case you would put the Limit on both powers. The same for an extra on Linked powers, the Extra has to be paid for on both powers individually.

    As a GM, that is how I would want it if it was for a character in one of my games. You get the discount on the Limit on both powers (but it isn't like you are looking for every loophole to shave points), but it is much clearer to anyone reading your character sheet about how the power works.
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    • #3
      Re: Question about Limits and Extras

      Fair question, cheshire86, and, honestly, the answer is - from my interpretation - pretty much along the lines of digitalangel's. ICONS has been constructed in such a way that a good chunk of such answers is going to fall into the "Well, it depends on how you work it out with your GM," category...and such being one of the reasons that I favour ICONS over a more stick-right-to-the-chargen-rules-in-the-book argument. Straight out of the gate, I'd be of the opinion that, "Yeah, because Flight's an Extra, it's subject to the same restrictions as the base Blast power." Any exceptions to this would have to be hashed out between the player and GM; does it not work in darkness, does it work only at a reduced effectiveness in darkness, does the character have to roll for potential exhaustion if Flight's used for a particular length of time and/or speed level in darkness, does it work only in darkness as a sort of low-level expression of the base power...the combinations/permutations are potentially endless.

      I would, especially at character creation, be willing to allow the player to trade out another power and/or 7+ Abilities level to have the Flight power work at all times/places, with the likely proviso that, if Blast is neutralized somehow, Flight is as well, unless some kind of exception or escape-out-the-trap-door predetermined rationale is built in.

      Again, in line with digitalangel, doing such chargen from a points-assigned basis could work out both a bit easier or harder, depending on how much the GM is allowing the player to shave off in order to achieve benefits. I would request that you keep us up to date with how this works out; could be a bit of an object lesson for the crew here as to what, or what not, to utilize in order to maximize the fun level for both players and GMs.

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      • #4
        Re: Question about Limits and Extras

        I think where the Extras/Limits thing breaks down for me is in areas like "Buying Extras for Extras" and "Placing Limits on Extras"... and figuring out if a) it's even possible and b) how to compute the costs of such things.

        For example -

        Character starts with Fire Control 5. Cost: 5 points.

        Player adds Blast as an Extra. Cost: 5 points.

        Player limits Fire Control with "Only In Daylight" in order to add Blast as an Extra for free. Cost: -5 points.

        Player wants to add "Burst" to the previously added Blast as an Extra. I'd say that'd cost 5 points (the original value of the Extra).

        Player then wants to Limit the Blast in order to get the Burst Extra placed on it for free.

        If the Blast inherits Limits from the "parent" power - in this case, "Only In Daylight" - with no benefit/cost savings/etc., then the player would have to find another Limit to place on Blast in order to get Burst for free. This, to me, seems fair / common sense. Kind of like the Magic power has inherent Limits that don't give the benefit(s) that Limits normally provide.

        But since there doesn't appear to be a set rule on the matter, it's open for rules-lawyering, and my head starts to hurt.

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        • #5
          Re: Question about Limits and Extras

          It feels like this could be abused easily -

          Fire Control 5
          Extra: Blast
          Limit (Fire Control) Only in Daylight. Blast is bought for free.
          Limit (Blast) Only In Daylight.
          Player buys Flight as an Extra for Blast for free.
          Limit (Flight) Only In Daylight.
          Player buys Dazzle as an Extra ...

          You see where I'm going here. A player winds up getting many powers... for 5 points. Sure, they won't be that effective at night, but...

          So, yeah, I feel like either my interpretation of things is at least a little off, or the system is open for Mix-Maxery at a Munchkin level.

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          • #6
            Re: Question about Limits and Extras

            When statting up characters, I usually consider Extras to be permanent Stunts and thus are not eligible for their own Limits and Extras, instead inheriting the same from the parent Power. So, if you added a Limit to Blast of "Only Work in Daylight" and then took the Extra "Flight," the Limit would apply to both. If the Powers would have different sets of Extras and Limits, I would break them out as their own Powers.

            Just my philosophy, but, as others have said, I don't think there is a hard and fast rule.

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            • #7
              Re: Question about Limits and Extras

              Can see and appreciate KnightofDingo's logic entirely, and - player/GM discussed/agreed-upon special circumstances as the exception - it's something I'd probably utilize as a good standing rule-of-thumb as well. Nice to see people dropping in here and knocking the RAW-interpretation ball back and forth a bit; perhaps we can get Mr. Kenson in here, or on his own blog, to give a sort of final ruling on the situation, even if such amounts to not much more than, "Yeah, the discussion so far pretty much sums up my own opinion on the subject...players, GMs, whatever you guys manage to work out between yourselves is certainly good enough with me." Looking forward to more ICONS books/modules/etc. coming out over the duration of the year.

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