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  • Armor Chart remake for better gaming

    Okay, so i have sat down with my players and it seems to them that the AR-Penalty and Strain ratio is off a bit and i kind of agree. i have created a new set of armors that expand the base a bit; plus added from TitansGrave and renamed some of the armors as well

    Penalty + Strain = AR

    CLOTHING:
    clothing is just base clothing that everyone wears.
    Light Clothing: AR: 0 PEN: 0 STRAIN: 0
    Heavy Clothing: AR: 1 PEN: 0 STRAIN: 1

    LIGHT ARMORS:
    Light Armors are the most basic of armors that offer little protection but do not hinder the character as much.
    Leather: AR: 2 PEN: 1 STRAIN: 1
    Studded: AR 3 PEN 1: STRAIN: 2
    *Scout: AR: 2 PEN: 0 STRAIN: 2
    **Robes: AR: 2 PEN: 2 STRAIN: 0

    MEDIUM ARMORS:
    Medium armors are the most intermediate, offering decent protection while not hampering as much as heavy armors.
    Chain Mail: AR: 4 PEN: 2 STRAIN: 2
    Splint Mail: AR: 5 PEN: 2 STRAIN: 3
    *Light Battle: AR: 4 PEN: 1 STRAIN: 3
    **Inscribed: AR: 4 PEN: 3 STRAIN: 1

    HEAVY ARMORS:
    Heavy Armors are the heaviest, providing the most protection but hinders the most.
    Half-Plate: AR: 6 PEN: 3 STRAIN: 3
    Full-Plate: AR: 7 PEN: 4 STRAIN: 3
    *Heavy Battle: AR: 6 PEN: 2 STRAIN: 4
    **Mithril: AR: 6 PEN: 4 STRAIN: 2

    *Scout, Light Battle and Heavy Battle are designed to aid in combat by reducing the Penalty but this is made up by having an increase in Casting Strain. Battle Armor is designed for warriors and rogues, not mages.

    **Robes, Inscribed and Mithril armors are designed for a Mage to get the protection they need without the Strain of normal armor, but this reduction in Casting Strain is made up by having an increase in Penalty.

    a reduction of penalty for rogues and warriors is helpful in combat while a reduction is Strain for mages will aid them if they lack combat skills.

    I have also been working with a set of materials and their effects on armor and weapons. these can be things like a reduction in Penalty or Strain or even an increase in AR or damage. i can post those later on.

    any thoughts?
    Last edited by VladGenX; 7th August 2016, 05:13 PM.
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  • #2
    Re: Armor Chart remake for better gaming

    2 thoughts:

    1. Plate is less restrictive than mail. It has better weight distribution, mobility, and more.

    2. The AR points are too bunched up. There's not much of a reason to move up the heavier armors, as it's only a couple AR, and you have to spend a talent point.

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    • #3
      Re: Armor Chart remake for better gaming

      Originally posted by shonuff View Post
      Plate is less restrictive than mail. It has better weight distribution, mobility, and more.
      Citation Needed. It took some research before I understood your statement. Historically weapons and armor play a circular game of innovation and obsolescence. It is also difficult since I think the plate > everything argument is founded in gaming tradition now. It is kind of what people expect.

      Originally posted by VladGenX View Post
      any thoughts?
      Too many types of armor. While flavours are good for a setting, 14 different kinds numerically is too many for a player to understand. They will float to a few kinds that stand out and most will not be used. Think of how the weapon table is currently.

      I like that you used a math formula to base your ideas. However, I politely disagree that armor derives it value from penalties alone (str/dex/strain). From reading your post and thinking a bit more, maybe I have something similar and interesting to add.

      What if armor had a minimum constitution requirement as justification for how heavy armor you could wear? 0 CON and lower permits 0 AR, 2 CON permits 2 AR, 5 CON permits 5 AR, etc and everything in between. Not meeting the requirement results in STR and DEX in the amount of the deficit amount of CON.

      Pegging armor rating to constitution puts these stats easily in the warrior tank arena without penalties and warrior only talents. More stats more equipment!

      If you go back to my HP MP equivalency theory thread, if a magic person dumped a point into constitution and converted it to MP instead of HP, then strain makes sense from the having cake and eating it too perspective.

      PS: All class restrictions on talents should be removed.
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      • #4
        Re: Armor Chart remake for better gaming

        Originally posted by mdlthree View Post
        Citation Needed. It took some research before I understood your statement. Historically weapons and armor play a circular game of innovation and obsolescence. It is also difficult since I think the plate > everything argument is founded in gaming tradition now. It is kind of what people expect.
        No, plate being more restrictive than mail is founded in the gaming tradition because of the Coconut Effect. We see old movies and TV shows where knights need cranes to get on horses, but it just wasn't true, except for maybe the very restrictive tournament armors.

        There are medieval combat manuals about acrobatics in plate, and French gendarmes doing cartwheels. In pop culture, the show "Deadliest Warrior" found that you lost about 2x the mobility in mail than you did plate - granted, not the hardest science, but also one of the only direct comparisons.

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        • #5
          Re: Armor Chart remake for better gaming

          Originally posted by shonuff View Post
          No, plate being more restrictive than mail is founded in the gaming tradition because of the Coconut Effect. We see old movies and TV shows where knights need cranes to get on horses, but it just wasn't true, except for maybe the very restrictive tournament armors.

          There are medieval combat manuals about acrobatics in plate, and French gendarmes doing cartwheels. In pop culture, the show "Deadliest Warrior" found that you lost about 2x the mobility in mail than you did plate - granted, not the hardest science, but also one of the only direct comparisons.
          This is very true, in a realistic sense plate armor would not only outperform mail armor in it's defensive purposes it would also outperform mail armor due to weighing less and thus giving a lower speed penalty and/or strain. It goes even further (e.g. pretty much blocking all damage from a lot of weapon attacks rather than just reducing it), but let's not go there.

          That said, it depends on how you present it to your players.

          I think having a chart where the bigger the benefit, the higher the penalty is a good basis for creating armor. BUT this doesn't mean you have to present it to your players like that - once you put a label on it, it's presented in a specific way.

          If you have a chart for armor:
          +2 ar, -2 penalty, 1 strain
          +4 ar, -4 penalty, 2 strain
          +6 ar, -6 penalty, 3 strain

          That's fine. As soon as you call one of them plate armor, it might not make sense anymore.


          So maybe in your world, you present the following to your players
          Leather: +2 ar, -2 penalty, 1 strain
          Mail: +4 ar, -6 penalty, 3 strain
          Plate: +6 ar, -4 penalty, 2 strain

          Making both mail and plate armor 'break' the basic armor chart (which is fine). In this case mail would be undesirable compared to plate. But hey, perhaps plate armor is nowhere near as available or a lot more expensive, making it an uncommon or perhaps even rare item.
          But that doesn't take away that you could perhaps use a chart to have a basis on which you can create armor items.
          Last edited by Gerben; 8th August 2016, 07:04 AM.

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          • #6
            Re: Armor Chart remake for better gaming

            I don't see enough of a problem with the standard rules for armour to warrant changing things up, the only change I'm making is to increase the price of plate armour.
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            • #7
              Re: Armor Chart remake for better gaming

              Originally posted by Gerben View Post
              This is very true, in a realistic sense plate armor would not only outperform mail armor in it's defensive purposes it would also outperform mail armor due to weighing less and thus giving a lower speed penalty and/or strain. It goes even further (e.g. pretty much blocking all damage from a lot of weapon attacks rather than just reducing it), but let's not go there.

              That said, it depends on how you present it to your players.

              I think having a chart where the bigger the benefit, the higher the penalty is a good basis for creating armor. BUT this doesn't mean you have to present it to your players like that - once you put a label on it, it's presented in a specific way.

              If you have a chart for armor:
              +2 ar, -2 penalty, 1 strain
              +4 ar, -4 penalty, 2 strain
              +6 ar, -6 penalty, 3 strain

              That's fine. As soon as you call one of them plate armor, it might not make sense anymore.


              So maybe in your world, you present the following to your players
              Leather: +2 ar, -2 penalty, 1 strain
              Mail: +4 ar, -6 penalty, 3 strain
              Plate: +6 ar, -4 penalty, 2 strain

              Making both mail and plate armor 'break' the basic armor chart (which is fine). In this case mail would be undesirable compared to plate. But hey, perhaps plate armor is nowhere near as available or a lot more expensive, making it an uncommon or perhaps even rare item.
              But that doesn't take away that you could perhaps use a chart to have a basis on which you can create armor items.
              Personally, what I did was this:

              Light Mail - AR: 5, AP: -4, Strain: 3
              Heavy Mail - AR: 7, AP: -5, Strain: 4
              Light Plate - AR: 8, AP: -4, Strain: 5
              Heavy Plate - AR: 10, AP: -5, Strain: 6
              Tailored Light Plate - AR: 8, AP: -2, Strain: 5
              Tailored Heavy Plate - AR: 10, AP: -3, Strain: 6

              Light/Heavy Plate represent common munitions plate. The tailored variants are custom fitted for the individual. Creating a tailored variant is 5x the cost, but any other character using it treats it as the regular version of the armor. Likewise, any regular variant of a plate armor can take it to a skilled armorer, and have it modified to become the tailored version for 4x cost and some time.

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              • #8
                Re: Armor Chart remake for better gaming

                Something else to consider that somewhat goes against the grain of FAGE's simplified rules set (like no encumberance): plate armor, from the camail and jupon period on up, could not be donned without help due to the many straps that helped distribute the weight. Pathfinder addresses this, but it doesn't come up in many games. It definitely matters in the middle of the night or in a watery moat, however.

                If you make plate armor awesome, as in more protection and less penalty and strain, then everyone will wear it, regardless of price. I would recommend you add some drawbacks, like a penalty to tests against fire and lightning arcana. After all, if less cumbersome plate appeals to you because it's historically accurate, then you might as well embrace the laws of physics, too!

                Or just drop your rustbucket meat shields into the water on rare occasion to spice things up.

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                • #9
                  Re: Armor Chart remake for better gaming

                  Originally posted by Jack Spartan View Post
                  Something else to consider that somewhat goes against the grain of FAGE's simplified rules set (like no encumberance): plate armor, from the camail and jupon period on up, could not be donned without help due to the many straps that helped distribute the weight. Pathfinder addresses this, but it doesn't come up in many games. It definitely matters in the middle of the night or in a watery moat, however.
                  You could do that, but if you're routinely having night ambushes, I would either cry foul or plan for them. You would lose any drama if each adventure had its "plate sucks" level.

                  If you make plate armor awesome, as in more protection and less penalty and strain, then everyone will wear it, regardless of price. I would recommend you add some drawbacks, like a penalty to tests against fire and lightning arcana. After all, if less cumbersome plate appeals to you because it's historically accurate, then you might as well embrace the laws of physics, too!

                  Or just drop your rustbucket meat shields into the water on rare occasion to spice things up.
                  Plate and mail are mostly metal armors. They'd both have similar penalties to fire and lightning. They're both heavy, so you'd drown. Plate is better all things being equal. That's why you have rarity and price differences, because the other methods are contrived.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Armor Chart remake for better gaming

                    I just go with Light AR 2, Medium AR 5, Heavy AR 8, with medium and heavy having similar penalties. Of course heavy is much more expensive, but if someone gives you a free pick in a full armory everyone will go to the heavy ones since they will always win. And that's how we like it.
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