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[Feedback Request] New Ability set + attack/damage combinations

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  • [Feedback Request] New Ability set + attack/damage combinations

    Hey everyone!

    I am thinking about changing the ability set for my upcoming campaign to the following:

    Strength
    Constitution
    Dexterity (hand-eye coordination)
    Agility (body coordination)
    Awareness (aka Perception)
    Intelligence
    Charisma (aka Communication)
    Willpower

    -----------------------

    Question is, how to best link those new abilities to the attack & damage rolls.

    Maybe:

    Strength - Damage for "former fighting" weapons
    Dexterity - Attack for all weapons
    Agility - Defense & Speed
    Awareness - Damage for "former accuracy" weapons

    Or maybe just go the DND5e route:

    Strength - Attack & Damage for "former fighting" weapons
    Constitution - HP
    Dexterity - Attack & Damage for "former accuracy" weapons
    Agility - Defense & Speed

    EDIT: I don't like this option anymore, so ignore it.


    Anyone a good idea?
    Last edited by DracoDruid; 23rd April 2016, 06:54 AM.
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  • #2
    Re: [Feedback Request] New Ability set + attack/damage combinations

    With those stats I'd do:

    STR +Damage
    DEX +Attack
    AGI +Defense

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: [Feedback Request] New Ability set + attack/damage combinations

      Looking at the F-AGE dexterity list of focuses, having sub categories of dexterity and agility would probably move things like this. These categories are just my quick guess, but this split basically says you want a new stat for role playing focuses and rename the combat ones as agility.

      Agility
      • Acrobatics
      • Initiative
      • Riding
      • Sailing
      • Stealth
      Dexterity
      • Calligraphy
      • Crafting
      • Legendre-main
      • Lock picking
      • Traps

      I don't think there is much value to renaming perception and communication. Communication has a bit of an advantage since Charisma was there first with DnD. Personally I prefer and understand the word Communication more than I do with Charisma.

      Getting to the next section - I see that your new Dexterity might actually be a replacement for the whole fighting versus accuracy debate. My opinion on this (at the moment) favours fighting to describe a hit mechanic for melee weapons and accuracy to describe a hit mechanic for range weapons (also spells). There feels like there is historical precedent to want a ranged character to be poor at melee and vice versa which seems to support my opinion. A singe dex stat for hit is too broad to allow a character to be as uniquely good at a weapon.

      Also it looks like you are also removing the roll to hit part by putting dex into damage. improving hit already increases damage - you will just end up doubling the value of dex in your case. Stats already are double counting with weapons. the min str requirement plus the +dmg ends up making the weapon formula to have 2*STR term.

      I like the idea of the +dmg modifier coming from several sources. this allows flexibility of ability choice with reduce effect on limiting combat progression. My prototype idea is:
      • Warrior: STR DEX
      • Rogue: DEX PERC
      • MAGE: PERC WP

      Mechanics wise I could even see this extending to three parts.
      1. Do you know where to hit the enemy? Perception/Intelligence
      2. Can you hit the enemy in that spot? Accuracy/Fighting/Dexterity
      3. How hard can you hit the enemy? Strength/Willpower Etc

      And finally on the DnD 5e comment. Isn't using the same statistic for hitting and damage the problem D-AGE has with its mechanics and why F-AGE is different?
      [URL="http://herdingdice.tumblr.com/"]Herding Dice[/URL] - A tumblr where I put things about Adventure Game Engine design.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: [Feedback Request] New Ability set + attack/damage combinations

        The double effect is from D-AGE, where STR was the attack and damage modifier.

        Additionally, it's fairly common for multiple weapons to be governed by the same attribute. Heck, look at F-AGE. How many weapons are governed by ACC? There'd still be differences - STR would be the melee damage modifier; Awareness (PER) the ranged.

        Also, I would make +Attack the derived stat, not +Damage. I would look at something like:

        Melee Attack: (STR+DEX+AWA)/3
        Ranged Attack: (DEX+AWA)/2
        Defense: (AGI+AWA)/maybe by 2 or 1 - Defense could use a boost
        Damage: +STR melee, +AWA ranged

        Although I would have left DEX and AGI combined.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: [Feedback Request] New Ability set + attack/damage combinations

          Originally posted by DracoDruid View Post
          I am thinking about changing the ability set for my upcoming campaign to the following:

          Strength
          Constitution
          Dexterity (hand-eye coordination)
          Agility (body coordination)
          Awareness (aka Perception)
          Intelligence
          Charisma (aka Communication)
          Willpower

          -----------------------

          Question is, how to best link those new abilities to the attack & damage rolls.

          Maybe:

          Strength - Damage for "former fighting" weapons
          Constitution - HP
          Dexterity - Attack for all weapons
          Agility - Defense & Speed
          Awareness - Damage for "former accuracy" weapons
          At its core, you rolled Fighting and Accuracy into a single stat, and just played around with the stat names. The only important issue at this point is the combining of Fighting and Accuracy. The changing of stat names is inconsequential.

          Others have an issue with the combo stat (Fighting+Accuracy) also blurring the line between melee combatants and ranged combatants. But I think you can bring some clarity back into that line via the stat requirements on the weapons (e.g. Min Str for melee, Min Dex for ranged).

          Originally posted by DracoDruid View Post
          Or maybe just go the DND5e route:

          Strength - Attack & Damage for "former fighting" weapons
          Constitution - HP
          Dexterity - Attack & Damage for "former accuracy" weapons
          Agility - Defense & Speed
          You can, but it defeats the purpose of the to-hit stat and the damage stat being split in FAGE.

          Consider a monster that is strong but clumsy. It will hit hard, but it won't hit accurately.

          With FAGE, you just go with high Strength, low Fighting/Accuracy. With D&D, it gets a bit more complicated and arbitrary. You will need to give it high Strength to model its overall strength, but doing so would also make it very accurate with melee attacks, so you'll have to impose some penalties on its attacks.

          Overall, I'd just stick to the FAGE design of the separation of to-hit and damage. But I also don't think doing it D&D-style would be a real deal-breaker - you might have to re-design adversaries though, so that the new stat rules apply to every creature across the game system.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: [Feedback Request] New Ability set + attack/damage combinations

            Originally posted by shonuff View Post
            Also, I would make +Attack the derived stat, not +Damage. I would look at something like:
            Melee Attack: (STR+DEX+AWA)/3
            Ranged Attack: (DEX+AWA)/2
            Defense: (AGI+AWA)/maybe by 2 or 1 - Defense could use a boost
            Damage: +STR melee, +AWA ranged
            The problem I see with division (or average) is that the game is played with round numbers and thus in the melee case three level need to pass before you see an effective increase in damage. Instead just have STR+DEX+AWA and design HP to be appropriately balanced to be able to soak that kind of damage.
            [URL="http://herdingdice.tumblr.com/"]Herding Dice[/URL] - A tumblr where I put things about Adventure Game Engine design.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: [Feedback Request] New Ability set + attack/damage combinations

              Originally posted by mdlthree View Post
              The problem I see with division (or average) is that the game is played with round numbers and thus in the melee case three level need to pass before you see an effective increase in damage. Instead just have STR+DEX+AWA and design HP to be appropriately balanced to be able to soak that kind of damage.
              While it is a negative, I don't think its a very consequential one. Plenty of other games (old D&D, Shadowrun, and even AGE) use divided stats, so it's nothing new. If you return to single stat for damage/attack, you run into the problems that D-AGE does: +Attack greatly outpaces +DEF, to the point that Defense is a meaningless stat. Having an average slows the pace of +Attack, while keeping the other uses of the stats intact. Furthermore, if you just the two stats, you greatly distort the bell curve - it's not just compensating on the Defense side. A 4/4 +Attack vs. a 2/2 +Defense would go from a 83.8% (average) to a 95.37% (cumulative).

              And again, you already need multiple levels to see a boost when you get to 5+. Even though an average would still require multiple level advancements for to see a difference in the +Attack, you would see differences in your other stats.

              Furthermore, it would have the added benefit of +Attack being actually something to consider. As it stands, +Attack is easy to come by. With the 1:1 ratio, +1-2 Attack isn't much, it's just one aspect on one stat, but if it were an average of 2-3 stats, then anything +Attack would be much more to consider.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: [Feedback Request] New Ability set + attack/damage combinations

                I would take a point of simplicity from 5e; if you use the stat to attack, you use it for damage.

                heavy weapons: str to attack and damage
                light weapons: dexterity to attack and damage
                ranged weapons: awareness to attack and damage

                agility: defense

                In fact I did something like this in my AGE of Fallout conversion.
                DiBastet's Homebrew - My own homebrew. Use them, mine them for ideas, change them, as you see fit.
                AGE of Darkness - Converting World of Darkness to Fantasy Age.
                AGE of Wacraft - Playing AGE in Azeroth.

                Age of Homebrew - Links to other homebrew. Feel free to add more.

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                • #9
                  Re: [Feedback Request] New Ability set + attack/damage combinations

                  IMO I would specifically avoid the one stat for attack/damage. Yeah, it's simple.... but that's it. And there's a point where streamlining and simplifying take any mental challenge out. For me, I quickly grew tired of D-AGE's attack/damage bonus being the same when I was creating my bestiary.

                  Additionally, having a solo stat for attack and damage creates an uber stat. In D-AGE, a warrior could legitimately only focus on STR.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: [Feedback Request] New Ability set + attack/damage combinations

                    Thank you all for the feedback!

                    - As I wrote, the DnD5 route would be an option, but I forgot about the whole "High-damage-low-hitter" ogre which I actually liked.
                    So this route probably isn't my way of choice.

                    - Combining several abilities and take the average (or some other derived formula) isn't my jam either.
                    If using multiple stats I would either say "use the highest" or "use the lowest". Less math, and you can clearly see what to improve to get better.
                    But I am not so keen about that either.

                    So it would probably be something similar to my first proposal.

                    - The renaming is just my preference. I could live without it.
                    The true change is the merging of Fighting + Accuracy into Dexterity, and the "non-hand-coordination" part of Dexterity split into the new Agility ability, as mdlthree has pointed out correctly.
                    I understand that it's a personal preference whether to split "melee ability" and "ranged ability" but since Vanilla F-AGE also has several melee weapons use Accuracy, the split isn't that clear there either.
                    For me, I always disliked the merging of manual dexterity and body agility, hence the split.

                    Hmm...

                    Maybe the "take the lower route" isn't so bad after all:

                    Melee (Strength): Lower of STR or DEX
                    Melee (Dexterity): Lower of DEX or PER
                    Ranged: Lower of DEX or PER

                    I. Don't. Know.
                    Last edited by DracoDruid; 23rd April 2016, 02:06 AM.
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                    • #11
                      Re: [Feedback Request] New Ability set + attack/damage combinations

                      Using the lowest seems counterintuitive to me, and I would find it annoying as a player.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: [Feedback Request] New Ability set + attack/damage combinations

                        Originally posted by DracoDruid View Post
                        The true change is the merging of Fighting + Accuracy into Dexterity, and the "non-hand-coordination" part of Dexterity split into the new Agility ability, as mdlthree has pointed out correctly.
                        I understand that it's a personal preference whether to split "melee ability" and "ranged ability" but since Vanilla F-AGE also has several melee weapons use Accuracy, the split isn't that clear there either.
                        For me, I always disliked the merging of manual dexterity and body agility, hence the split.

                        Hmm...

                        Maybe the "take the lower route" isn't so bad after all:

                        Melee (Strength): Lower of STR or DEX
                        Melee (Dexterity): Lower of DEX or PER
                        Ranged: Lower of DEX or PER
                        Perhaps playtesting in stages might help you out.

                        Try going first with just the mechanical change of Fighting+Accuracy+bits of old Dexterity --> new Dexterity, and other bits of old Dexterity --> new Agility. See how it feels at the table. If you get this right, then you can try playtesting the damage stats next.

                        Personally, I'm mostly done with my campaign, and the only real change similar to this one that I used was merging Fighting and Accuracy. All the other Abilities remained the same. Allowed me to use published material mostly as written, with very minor tweaks when Fighting and Accuracy both matter to the adversary.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: [Feedback Request] New Ability set + attack/damage combinations

                          Since I'm also thinking of reforming the attribute system along similar lines for my next campaign run, what about this?

                          ATTRIBUTES
                          • AGILITY: Speed, initiative, defense, acrobatics, stealth.
                          • CONSTITUTION: Health, toughness, endurance.
                          • CHARISMA: Communication, performance, expression.
                          • DEXTERITY: Lockpicking, pickpocketing, trap-springing, precision.
                          • INTELLIGENCE: Knowledge, recall, recognition.
                          • PERCEPTION: The five senses, sensory processing.
                          • STRENGTH: Lifting, climbing, jumping.
                          • WILLPOWER: Courage, discipline, focus.


                          PROFICIENCY
                          Borrowed shamelessly from D&D. This is a number that progresses at some rate (e.g. Poor, Average, Good) according to character level. PCs should at least have Average Proficiency.

                          ABILITY FOCUSES
                          • Ability focuses from primary attributes grant an additional +1 bonus (from +2/+3 to +3/+4).
                          • Weapon/attack focuses will fall under Strength or Dexterity (e.g. Axes, Heavy Blades under Strength, Bows and Black Powder under Dexterity).


                          ATTACKS
                          • Attack rolls are not affiliated with any attribute. In practice, they are just 3d6 rolls.
                          • Proficiency in the attack adds your Proficiency to the attack roll. This would top off at 3d6+5 at 16th or 17th level.
                          • The ability focus adds the focus bonus to the attack roll. This would top off at 3d6+4 if the focus is taken twice and is for a primary attribute.
                          • Based only on the basic stats (sans talents, specializations, powers, etc), an attack roll will max out at 3d6+9 (17th level, focus twice, focus from primary attribute).


                          IMPLICATIONS
                          • Approximates the Bounded Accuracy principle of D&D5E. Somehow narrows the gap between Attack and Defense. A 1st-level character has a small but realistic chance of hitting a 20th-level character.
                          • Dexterity builds will be slightly better with ranged attacks when they get their weapon focus. Because ranged weapons will most likely fall under Dexterity, their focus bonuses would be higher than those on Strength weapons. But because Dex doesn't add directly to the attack roll, the bonus doesn't get out of hand.
                          • Strength builds will be slightly better with melee attacks when they get their weapon focus. Because melee weapons will most likely fall under Strength, their focus bonuses would be higher than those on Dexterity weapons. But because Str doesn't add directly to the attack roll, the bonus doesn't get out of hand.
                          • Without talent/power support, characters will have roughly the same attack bonus, and I think this is a good thing, so that no player feels left behind. If a player really wants to pull ahead of the rest, s/he'd have to invest in the right powers/talents/equipment, and then it'd really feel like an accomplishment, and even the "weaker" characters won't be able to complain because of the investiture.
                          • Requires a re-design of the bestiary/adversaries to put their stats in line.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: [Feedback Request] New Ability set + attack/damage combinations

                            This thread has us dealing with the hit mechanics and more categories of agility and dexterity. However something about defense being only dex based has bothered me. If you personally have ever been struck or knocked over there are two excuses for it.
                            • I didn't see that coming
                            • I couldn't get out of the way

                            The first statement can be interpreted as you failed your Perception test. The second statement can be interpreted as you failed your Dexterity test. This thread has also thrown around the concept of awareness. In combat this could be applied to a persons ability to keep track of positions and actions in their mind and be able to effectively make decisions with that. With these ideas I propose some ideas:
                            1. Defense be calculated using combined dexterity and perception; X + Dex + Perception, where X is lower than the current 10. Maybe somewhere in the 5-8 range depending on balance requirements
                            2. Major Action Defend increases your defense by 50% of your perception - for one turn your defense is calculated using 1.5 times your perception
                            3. Free Action Guard Up - increases your defense by 50% of your perception at the cost of decreasing your attack (hit) by the same amount (defense goes up, offense goes down, formerly a minor action)

                            Another idea that I am leaning toward is related to using dexterity (current stat) as the base stat for physical combat (melee ranged). All weapon group then have their focuses renamed as proficiencies and thus can be added to the dex roll. Proficiencies can be gained like choosing a normal focus or be placed inside a weapon group talent - id prefer the weapon group talent method as it jives with arcana talents.
                            Weapon Proficiency (Various): There is a separate focus for each weapon group.

                            Also there is something pleasingly symmetrical about dexterity both improving offense and defense,
                            [URL="http://herdingdice.tumblr.com/"]Herding Dice[/URL] - A tumblr where I put things about Adventure Game Engine design.

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                            • #15
                              Re: [Feedback Request] New Ability set + attack/damage combinations

                              Originally posted by mdlthree View Post
                              Defense be calculated using combined dexterity and perception; X + Dex + Perception, where X is lower than the current 10. Maybe somewhere in the 5-8 range depending on balance requirements
                              Lowering base Defense is unnecessary if you don't have a FIG/ACC stat that does nothing but give your +Attack. It's easier to increase Attack than Defense.

                              Major Action Defend increases your defense by 50% of your perception - for one turn your defense is calculated using 1.5 times your perception
                              I've found that a major defend action is rarely used. You just don't simply have the actions to use it.


                              Free Action Guard Up - increases your defense by 50% of your perception at the cost of decreasing your attack (hit) by the same amount (defense goes up, offense goes down, formerly a minor action)[/LIST]
                              it should be all actions, not just attacking.


                              Another idea that I am leaning toward is related to using dexterity (current stat) as the base stat for physical combat (melee ranged). All weapon group then have their focuses renamed as proficiencies and thus can be added to the dex roll. Proficiencies can be gained like choosing a normal focus or be placed inside a weapon group talent - id prefer the weapon group talent method as it jives with arcana talents.
                              Weapon Proficiency (Various): There is a separate focus for each weapon group.
                              If you used DEX for +Attack, and STR for +Damage is fine. It wouldn't be unique in the slightest.

                              That said, I wouldn't choose a method of weapon grouping because it jives with Arcana. Arcana took a decent magic system and oversimplified it. I see no reason to do that to weapons, too.

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