Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Miniatures

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Re: Miniatures

    Of course your medium matters, and some are more effective than others to portray certain experiences, which isn't to say you can't portray an experience in a certain medium, just that another is better. Take Gone Girl, for instance: it's a good movie, but the narrative suspense is much better represented in a book than on film.

    A maze meant to confuse players, like Forgotten Realms' Undermountain or Dragon Age's the Fade? It's better off in pure verbal format. Depriving players of their primary sense adds to confusion. Whereas if you provide visual cues, it's a signal that the maze is a puzzle to be figured out.

    Mass combat is abstract in nature, especially in a non-warfare game. So the individual movement rates, terrain modifiers, etc., don't matter as much. Whereas with mini-mass combat, where you can have 30-100 actors on stage, with multiple types, is best represented with minis. However, if it's a solo boss encounter (unless it's a set piece where the environment is important) is typically melee to the front, ranged to the back. The actual location typically doesn't matter, so while you could use minis, you gain virtually nothing and the effort and time could be used doing anything else.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Miniatures

      Originally posted by TheGreyWulf View Post
      This is the bit where you should stop and think it through again. If your characters are failing at every turn, then they failed at every turn, and deserve to get stuck. Since this is a roleplaying game, you should be roleplaying getting stuck, not metagame your way out.

      Also, there is a trick to getting yourselves unstuck: Your characters are stuck. The best way to roleplay getting stuck (that I know of) is either go around in circles, or stay put. Tell your GM that that's the way your characters act when they're stuck.

      Do you know what the GM is most likely to do? Move the story forward. The "world" will correct itself around your characters and get you unstuck because it serves nobody - not the players, not the GM - when the characters are stuck and the story doesn't move forward. Maybe an enemy patrol happens by, and you can track their path. Maybe you stumble upon a secret door. Maybe a giant wyrm just passes by, leaving a new corridor for you to follow.
      I 100% disagree. And maybe it's because I have always played with "ruthless" GMs and am one myself. Meaning, the world doesn't revolve around the characters. These characters are just in a living world. If they get themselves stuck, then they are stuck and will likely die (if that happens to be the case). Roleplaying being stuck is only fun for so long. This is where I believe "divine intervention" comes to play. The characters are stuck, bit off more than they could chew in a fight, in a puzzle, in whatever it may be, so the GM creates something or makes an event happen that shows the characters the right way to go, like you said a patrol passes by, a secret door, etc. I am so incredibly against this. I hate it when things feel cheap. I hate it when I feel like somebody needs to hold my hand and direct me out of something that we couldn't figure out on our own. It makes it feel like whenever there is a situation that the players may not be able to handle this, don't worry about it, the GM will just make everything ok and we will be fine. It takes away the risk, it takes away the fun.

      Originally posted by shonuff View Post
      I disagree. Certain scenarios lend themselves to certain play styles:

      A maze to be puzzled out - minis/maps

      Pigeonholing an encounter into a mode that doesn't support it is poor design, but the way to fix it isn't to lead the party out by their hands.
      This, I agree with. If the players are supposed to be able to figure out the puzzle, it shouldn't be required to commit every detail of every room to memory when our characters could just walk back into the room and see it again. Not having minis, props, or maps, eliminates that option.

      Originally posted by TheGreyWulf View Post
      Play style usually matches with the group, not with a specific scenario.

      Encounter design has nothing to do with play-style. The GM's delivery technique is the one that matters in the play-style. If s/he can't pull off a narrative, s/he can run all of the above in minis just fine. If s/he can pull off a narrative, s/he can run all of the above thru narrative just fine.
      Again, I disagree. I agree that play style matches the group, not the scenario, but I disagree that encounter design has nothing to do with play-style. For example, I know in combat, the game that I am GMing, the group is extremely tactical. They plot out every movement and have worked out a system that really works great for them. They are currently level 3 and are taking down Major and Dire threats because of the way they are able to rotate in defensive characters while healing the one who was just rotated out, and keeping a constant stream of damage on the bigger enemies. I take all of this into account when creating encounters for them. This has nothing to do with narrative.

      It should also be mentioned that it isn't necessarily the GM's fault because they may have poor delivery or whatever in a narrative moment. If the players can't grasp what is being said, or can't remember all the information, or just don't remember things audibly, that has nothing to do with the GM being a poor GM. We just adapt the way we play for our group and use minis. For example, if I were to read the descriptions rather than hear them spoken to me, I would have a way easier time grasping what specific details I needed to remember. If I had pictures, maps, minis, props that I could refer to, I would in a much better state to know what is what. When it's 100% audible, my brain shuts off and I can't follow. You could tell me hey just remember the number 2, and if you didn't WRITE it for me to read that I need to remember the number 2, I will forget it almost immediately. That's just how my brain works, and that seems to be a common thing with every group I have played in. In all the groups I have played in over the years (roughly... 8?) I have only met one player ever who was able to just listen to a narrative and know what to do and where to go and blah blah blah. Every other player from every other game has needed some sort of physical stimuli as an aid. If you're not that way, that's great, but you are in the minority in my experience.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Miniatures

        Originally posted by shonuff View Post
        A maze meant to confuse players, like Forgotten Realms' Undermountain or Dragon Age's the Fade? It's better off in pure verbal format. Depriving players of their primary sense adds to confusion. Whereas if you provide visual cues, it's a signal that the maze is a puzzle to be figured out.
        This, I disagree with. I don't think there is ever a time where purely vocal format is better. It just doesn't work for me or any group I have ever been in. It never has. Depriving players of their senses ensures that players can't metagame and go oh, well I can see this door leads into this specific room, so I'm going that way, but it also makes it so they HAVE to metagame when troubles arise that their characters can't figure out but using other tools at their disposal. Purely vocal encounters, and I mean strictly like dungeons and combat and such, is a complete waste of time to me. You could tell me that fluffy bunnies are raining from the sky and all I have to do is touch one and I'll gain immortality and 30 seconds later, I'll forget that it's raining fluffy bunnies. I need some kind of a physical stimuli for it to make any sense and stick in my brain. And also, why would you put your players through a puzzle that isn't meant to be figured out? That seems like a waste of time to me.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Miniatures

          Originally posted by ScreamInVain View Post
          Purely vocal encounters, and I mean strictly like dungeons and combat and such, is a complete waste of time to me
          Well, I'm sorry for you.

          And that's not sarcasm. I mean, while I don't prefer tactical, and given the option would go for narrative, I am able to enjoy a tactical combat game, like pathfinder or D&D 4e, if not as much as narrative one like FATE or ST, at least a little. Too bad that you -and all the groups you've played with- aren't.

          If I'm forced to play a 4e game for reasons (usually social reasons like friends wanting my company), while I won't have the time of my life at least I can have some fun. And with that I'll also be able to feel some empathy as to why my friends are having so much fun. In your case I can only imagine you feeling pretty miserable and unable to empathize.

          Well, this is getting deep. Back to minis.


          Originally posted by TheGreyWulf View Post
          The "world" will correct itself around your characters
          I don't agree with that. While I'm not a "rules referee", since me and my friends are all people that don't have time to spend being stuck, I don't like this train of thought. I'm more partial to the fail foward approach. If, however, players do get stuck in a puzzle or in a certain investigation, then they do exactly what normal people would do: They look for other clues, hire a sage or private investigator, or something along these lines, instead of just waiting that the story will move foward one way or another.

          If in the mountain there is a dragon, and they decide to go there, they won't magically find only level appropriate threats. If their plan revolves around going thru that mountain and they can't deal with the dragon, then instead of an army showing up, or an airship, or the dragon being away just to move the story foward, then they'll have to deal with the problem. Maybe hire an army. Or an airship. Or wait for the dragon to go away.

          However, what I do is give them clues if they seem stuck. These clues might not be much, like "there was a "Dragonslayer Wanted" poster in the previous town" or "if you can't find the thief, maybe a private investigator would help", or something along the lines of common sense.
          Last edited by DiBastet; 10th March 2016, 02:11 PM.
          DiBastet's Homebrew - My own homebrew. Use them, mine them for ideas, change them, as you see fit.
          AGE of Darkness - Converting World of Darkness to Fantasy Age.
          AGE of Wacraft - Playing AGE in Azeroth.

          Age of Homebrew - Links to other homebrew. Feel free to add more.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Miniatures

            Originally posted by DiBastet View Post
            Well, I'm sorry for you.

            And that's not sarcasm. I mean, while I don't prefer tactical, and given the option would go for narrative, I am able to enjoy a tactical combat game, like pathfinder or D&D 4e, if not as much as narrative one like FATE or ST, at least a little. Too bad that you -and all the groups you've played with- aren't.

            If I'm forced to play a 4e game for reasons (usually social reasons like friends wanting my company), while I won't have the time of my life at least I can have some fun. And with that I'll also be able to feel some empathy as to why my friends are having so much fun. In your case I can only imagine you feeling pretty miserable and unable to empathize.
            Well, that was incredibly insulting. No, empathy has nothing to do with it. I'm a very empathetic person. I (and every group I have ever played with) just find a purely narrative game to be extremely boring and dull. And if that works for you, that's great. It's just not my cup of tea, thus we add props and minis.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Miniatures

              And also, why would you put your players through a puzzle that isn't meant to be figured out? That seems like a waste of time to me.
              Because the puzzle might not matter. Think of Theseus and the Minotaur. The labyrinth was solved by breaking the rules, not by discovering the answer, and even then, the atmosphere/tone is more of fear/unknowing as he stumbles blindly forward.

              Other examples would be the Cenobites' Hell in Hellraiser; the Fade in Dragon Age; a dream; Undermountain; and I'm sure there are many more.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Miniatures

                Originally posted by shonuff View Post
                Because the puzzle might not matter.
                If it doesn't matter... Why do it? That premise doesn't make sense to me.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Miniatures

                  Originally posted by ScreamInVain View Post
                  If it doesn't matter... Why do it? That premise doesn't make sense to me.
                  Because the actual puzzle may be a red herring, or unsolvable, or a number of other things.

                  Like I said:
                  Originally posted by shonuff View Post
                  Think of Theseus and the Minotaur. The labyrinth was solved by breaking the rules, not by discovering the answer, and even then, the atmosphere/tone is more of fear/unknowing as he stumbles blindly forward.

                  Other examples would be the Cenobites' Hell in Hellraiser; the Fade in Dragon Age; a dream; Undermountain; and I'm sure there are many more.
                  Sometimes it doesn't matter if they sole the maze, just that they're in one.

                  Comment

                  Working...
                  X