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Rules Question: Rogues and Fighting

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  • Hagintora
    replied
    Re: Rules Question: Rogues and Fighting

    I agree with combining fighting and accuracy. I think the distinction between classes should be on damage resolution; perception, strength, and willpower. I think it's these three that change how the classes "feel".

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  • TheGreyWulf
    replied
    Re: Rules Question: Rogues and Fighting

    Originally posted by Gerben View Post
    Can anyone come up with a reason where it's required to have both stats?
    Other than a purpose meant mainly for some game mechanic, the two stats have no difference. They have no narrative distinction. Mechanically, they both do the same thing: represent the ability to land something at a specific spot. The only difference right now is what sorts of something they can be used with.

    If you have other mechanics to split the use of weapons (e.g. Strength or Dexterity requirements, talent requirements, weapon weight categories, certain abilities only working with certain weapons, etc.), the distinction between the two stats becomes non-existent. This is what happens in my games, which is why I merged the two.

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  • Gerben
    replied
    Re: Rules Question: Rogues and Fighting

    I'm still not fully sure what to think of the fighting/accuracy.
    Due to weapon groups and requiring proficiency, with the core rules in mind, it wouldn't matter if you change it to a single stat, with a very few exceptions (a dwarf possibly haivng the axe proficiency, a dwarf rogue using a 3d6 axe, having a lighting attack for 7d6 at level 1.. ouch - although that might just be a problem with lightning attack in itself).

    But since the core rules do not allow rogues/mages to learn other weapon groups they can not use fighting weapons anyway (unless they want a big penalty) so in turn it would only be a downside for a warrior to pick up an accuracy based weapon when they already have access to fighting weapons (which in most cases are superior).
    That makes me think that the split in fighting/accuracy is made with future mechanics in mind, where someone who has access to multiple weapon groups needs to make a choice between the 2 stats, but considering the warrior currently has this choice and fighting weapons are superior in most cases (a part from ranged weapons).. I don't really see the need of splitting the stat aswell.
    Unless they would add specific rules to fighting/accuracy weapons respectively, but by keeping weapon groups, you could just add the rule to the weapon group as wel regardless of the stat you need to hit with it.

    The narrative justification for having the stats, I guess, would be that accuracy is required to pinpoint your attack and stab in the right spots, whereas fighting is required to use your weapon's fighting technique to beat your opponents fighting technique and then hit them when an opening occurs, given the 'size' of the weapon where you hit them would matter less.

    Another thing is that both aren't applied to other tests, if that would be done, accuracy would be a simple one, where it is all about your accuracy and precision in well whatever you do, though in some cases this might overlap a bit with how dexterity is currently used. Fighting would be more difficult, what is fighting? Perhaps it should be renamed to fighting technique and can be connected to certain weapon styles and recognizing these.. but in all honesty that would just overlap with intelligence and make it more complicated.

    So there's not really a reason I can think of why having 2 separate stats to hit, would be better than 1. Restrictions can still be applied fairly easily when you just have 1 stat.

    Can anyone come up with a reason where it's required to have both stats?

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  • shonuff
    replied
    Re: Rules Question: Rogues and Fighting

    I think you can't change PER to CUN. That would get too confusing IMO with D-AGE.

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  • Jigawatts
    replied
    Re: Rules Question: Rogues and Fighting

    Originally posted by DracoDruid View Post
    Maybe this thread is dead, but I thought I just put in my 2 cents and my favorite Attribute mix for Fantasy RPGs:

    Strength
    Constitution
    Dexterity (aka Accuracy + Manual/Upper-body coordination)
    Agility (Lower/full body coordination)
    Awareness (aka Perception, but also Empathy, sixth sense, etc.)
    Intelligence
    Charisma (aka Communication)
    Willpower
    Mainly I just want Fighting and Accuracy combined, but if we are changing stats for S's and G's I'd like to see Communication get renamed to one of Charisma, Presence, Personality, or Magnetism (probably one of the first two), all of which convey what the stat means in a better, more concise manner. I do like your thoughts on Awareness, but you could also take Perception and change it to Cunning, a stat covering perception, intuitiveness, and street smarts, basically a "roguish intelligence".

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  • DracoDruid
    replied
    Re: Rules Question: Rogues and Fighting

    Maybe this thread is dead, but I thought I just put in my 2 cents and my favorite Attribute mix for Fantasy RPGs:

    Strength
    Constitution
    Dexterity (aka Accuracy + Manual/Upper-body coordination)
    Agility (Lower/full body coordination)
    Awareness (aka Perception, but also Empathy, sixth sense, etc.)
    Intelligence
    Charisma (aka Communication)
    Willpower

    Leave a comment:


  • TheGreyWulf
    replied
    Re: Rules Question: Rogues and Fighting

    Originally posted by Jigawatts View Post
    If they ever do a revision to FAGE in a few years I hope they remove either Fighting or Accuracy (I'd say drop Fighting personally, it sounds weird as a stat, Accuracy sounds more stat-like) and roll them in together.
    Yep. Accuracy sounds like something that can be used outside of combat.

    Shooting a ball through a hoop: Accuracy.
    Hitting a golf ball with a golf club: Fighting? Sounds weird. ^_^

    Leave a comment:


  • Jigawatts
    replied
    Re: Rules Question: Rogues and Fighting

    I still don't feel there was a need for two new stats to govern attacking, one would have done the trick perfectly for all weapons. I guess I just don't like when any stat is completely useless for a character the way Fighting is for mages and rogues. Just drop one of them OP, and let the PCs keep whichever they rolled higher for as their attribute number.

    If they ever do a revision to FAGE in a few years I hope they remove either Fighting or Accuracy (I'd say drop Fighting personally, it sounds weird as a stat, Accuracy sounds more stat-like) and roll them in together.
    Last edited by Jigawatts; 28th February 2016, 12:49 AM.

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  • TheGreyWulf
    replied
    Re: Rules Question: Rogues and Fighting

    Originally posted by bighara View Post
    Another house rule (one I used) was to let the rogue PC take a new weapon group instead of a talent when he leveled. He also had a high Fighting score and wanted to play a thug with an axe. It seemed reasonable and I don't think it broke anything. The warrior PC was still a tank and by far the better fighter.
    Yep, did something very close to this. I developed a talent for picking up new weapons and even specializing in them.

    WEAPON TRAINING
    Basic: Choose a weapon group. You gain proficiency with weapons from the chosen weapon group. You may take this talent multiple times, even in the same level advancement, but you must choose a different weapon group each time.
    Advanced: Choose a kind of weapon from a weapon group for which you already have Basic Weapon Training (for example, the Long Sword from the Heavy Blades group). When you make a weapon attack using a weapon of the chosen kind, your attack deals an additional 2 damage. You may take this talent multiple times, but you must choose a different kind of weapon each time.
    Superior: You must be at least 6th level to take this talent. Choose a kind of weapon for which you already have Advanced Weapon Training. When you generate Stunt Points with a weapon attack that uses a weapon of the chosen kind, you generate an additional 1 SP. You may take this talent degree multiple times, but you must choose a different kind of weapon each time.

    I'm still tinkering with Superior Weapon Training. If ever it feels too strong, maybe I'd switch it out for a static bonus to attack rolls.

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  • Darkdreamer
    replied
    Re: Rules Question: Rogues and Fighting

    While Rogues and Mages only use Accuracy, occasionally a Warrior will too (if he uses archery, for example, or a dagger) so it mostly depends on how much you care about his ability to double dip.

    Leave a comment:


  • bighara
    replied
    Re: Rules Question: Rogues and Fighting

    Another house rule (one I used) was to let the rogue PC take a new weapon group instead of a talent when he leveled. He also had a high Fighting score and wanted to play a thug with an axe. It seemed reasonable and I don't think it broke anything. The warrior PC was still a tank and by far the better fighter.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gerben
    replied
    Re: Rules Question: Rogues and Fighting

    Originally posted by TheGreyWulf View Post
    Fighting, my group finds, is an absolutely useless attribute except for the Warrior, so I just house-ruled it out of games I run, and just crammed its functions into Accuracy. We are not missing it at all.
    I've heard this from others as well. Since both Accuracy and Fighting are only used for the attack rolls, you can easily drop one of them if you feel like it.

    In general Mages/Rogues use Accuracy and Warriors use Fighting (since they have easy access to those weapon groups). If you keep both, one thing I'd 'houserule' is to make brawling work with both fighting and accuracy (whichever is higher), this way warriors (who you'd expect to be decent brawlers) don't get the short end of the stick.

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  • TheGreyWulf
    replied
    Re: Rules Question: Rogues and Fighting

    Originally posted by Jakob Schmidt View Post
    This seems strange to me - did I miss something? Or is this a niche protection thing for the warrior? The way I understand the RAW, fighting is an absolutely useless attribute for Rogues.
    Fighting, my group finds, is an absolutely useless attribute except for the Warrior, so I just house-ruled it out of games I run, and just crammed its functions into Accuracy. We are not missing it at all.

    Leave a comment:


  • shonuff
    replied
    Re: Rules Question: Rogues and Fighting

    Yup.

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  • Jakob Schmidt
    started a topic Rules Question: Rogues and Fighting

    Rules Question: Rogues and Fighting

    I've just rolled up a couple of FAGE characters just for fun and came up with a pretty perfect Rogue who also had Fighting 3; that's when I noticed that there seems to be no option for the rogue to ever pick a a fighting-governed weapon's group; in fact, the only way for a rogue to pick up another weapon's group after chargen seems to be to take the Duelist specialisation.

    This seems strange to me - did I miss something? Or is this a niche protection thing for the warrior? The way I understand the RAW, fighting is an absolutely useless attribute for Rogues.
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