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  • #16
    Re: Accuracy vs fighting

    Thank you everyone for your opinions, and I think I have made a decision. I plan on using the rules as is for a 1 shot adventure, then try accuracy for ranged weapons and fighting for melee weapons. Damage will be what makes sense through roll playing, for example, if a rogue uses dagger and says he is aiming for a vital spot then perception will be used for damage. Or if a warrior is throwing a hand ax and says the are hurling the ax as hard as they can at the Orc, then strength will be used. I will see what the players like better.

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    • #17
      Re: Accuracy vs fighting

      Let us hear how it went!

      Quick side question:

      What about making all Accuracy weapons use Dexterity as Bonus damage stat?

      Making DEX too powerful?

      How about using Perception as general Bonus damage stat?
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      • #18
        Re: Accuracy vs fighting

        Originally posted by Croquemitaine View Post
        Says who? Seriously, this attitude can go die in a fire.
        The fact you don't like it doesn't make it any less true. The core functions of warrior are dependent on basically 2-4 attributes; anything else is gravy they've decided to pursue. They aren't expected to cover most of the ground a group needs rogues for, so the demands on their attribute choices are lower.

        But if you really want to follow this path, Rogues can blow off Communication and Intelligence too, as well as Willpower. And with Pinpoint Attack giving them an extra die of damage, they can slack off on Strength too.
        Communication, yes, if they're not a talky rogue. However, Lethality makes it undesirable for any rogue to blow off Intelligence in the long run. They can blow off Strength to some extent, if they don't mind living with the fact they're limited to lower damage weapons in the first place that all Pinpoint Attack does is make up the difference for. Willpower isn't an especial necessity for them either, far as it goes.

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        • #19
          Re: Accuracy vs fighting

          Originally posted by Darkdreamer View Post
          The fact you don't like it doesn't make it any less true. The core functions of warrior are dependent on basically 2-4 attributes; anything else is gravy they've decided to pursue. They aren't expected to cover most of the ground a group needs rogues for, so the demands on their attribute choices are lower.


          Communication, yes, if they're not a talky rogue. However, Lethality makes it undesirable for any rogue to blow off Intelligence in the long run. They can blow off Strength to some extent, if they don't mind living with the fact they're limited to lower damage weapons in the first place that all Pinpoint Attack does is make up the difference for. Willpower isn't an especial necessity for them either, far as it goes.
          Well, since it's apparantly still 1982 where you live, Rogues only need to pick locks and backstab.

          Or, to bring this conversation back on point, every attribute other than Fighting is broadly useful to every type of character:
          - ANYONE might be forced to fight unarmed (Accuracy)
          - ANYONE might need to bargain, lie to, or persuade an NPC of something (Communication)
          - ANYONE might need to swim or resist poison or disease (Constitution), plus of course everyone can use more Health
          - EVERYONE rolls Initiative, needs to avoid getting hit, and most likely needs to make a Stealth roll on occasion (Dexterity: Still the god-stat)
          - ANYONE might need to perform first aid or recall some useful bit of knowledge (Intelligence)
          - ANYONE might need to find an item or detect an ambush (Perception)
          - ANYONE might need to climb, jump, or lift something, or you know, hit something for damage (Strength)
          - ANYONE might need to make a courage/morale roll (Willlpower)

          But only Warriors will ever need to roll Fighting.

          Anyone can and will have to ignore some attributes when building their character, but Mages and Rogues get a freebie they can short-change with no downside (i.e. a pure dump stat). Warriors are always giving something up.

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          • #20
            Re: Accuracy vs fighting

            Well...since pinpoint accuracy is not only for small weapons, you can make good use of a ''heavy'' weapon using Fighting as a Rogue, and a Swordmage who wanna use a longsword (the only weapon better than a weapon in the staves group a mage can use as a Device) will invest in Fighting. A Warrior can dump Fighting in favor of Accuracy + Strength or Accuracy + Perception, hell they can max Dex if they want to be expert Grenadier. Sure, if you stay with the idea that a Rogue is always the skinny guy fighting with daggers or short swords and Mages are medieval nerds who can barely use a staff, only the Warrior as a use for Fighting. The point is: there's no specific dumpstat for any class in FAGE, any class can make good use of any stat given the right situation or character design.

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            • #21
              Re: Accuracy vs fighting

              Originally posted by vincegetorix View Post
              Well...since pinpoint accuracy is not only for small weapons, you can make good use of a ''heavy'' weapon using Fighting as a Rogue, and a Swordmage who wanna use a longsword (the only weapon better than a weapon in the staves group a mage can use as a Device) will invest in Fighting. A Warrior can dump Fighting in favor of Accuracy + Strength or Accuracy + Perception, hell they can max Dex if they want to be expert Grenadier. Sure, if you stay with the idea that a Rogue is always the skinny guy fighting with daggers or short swords and Mages are medieval nerds who can barely use a staff, only the Warrior as a use for Fighting. The point is: there's no specific dumpstat for any class in FAGE, any class can make good use of any stat given the right situation or character design.
              You are forgetting that Rogues and Mages do not begin with or have any RAW method of acquiring proficiency with Fighting-based weapons. The only exceptions are Sword Mages and dwarves or orcs who roll the appropriate weapon group proficiency from their racial benefits.

              So yes, Fighting is a specific dumpstat for Rogues and Mages in F-Age. The fact that brawling and clubs were designated as Accuracy-based pretty much confirms it. This continued citing of rare exception cases in an attempt to defend an obvious design flaw is becoming quite comical.

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              • #22
                Re: Accuracy vs fighting

                It is a dumpstat, can't really get around that. But is it really a bad thing?

                Out of all the abilities, as described in the rulebook, there are two that are only used for combat.
                Accuracy (Finesse & Ranged weapons) and Fighting (Heavy weapons).

                The reason Rogues/mages have fighting as a dumpstat, is only because (with some minor exceptions) they don't have access to the fighting weapon groups. So basically, they only have to focus on Accuracy for both melee and ranged.

                While warriors have access to a lot more weapon groups, in a way you could say the same for them. Unless you want to give up damage, you will be using the heavy weapons requiring fighting. Fighting has both melee and ranged (albeit a few) weapons in them. So in a way they could give up accuracy all together. Making accuracy, sort of, a dumpstat for warriors.

                That's really what it comes down to.
                Warriors have options if they invest: Get any weapon - but invest into the accuracy/fighting ability where needed
                Rogues/Mages are 'stuck' but don't have to invest: Limited weapon groups - but only have to think of accuracy for weapons.

                And the obvious reason for this is to create differences for each class and to 'guide' them into a certain direction.

                The only 'flaw' I see in this system is brawling. But as I've mentioned in this topic before, in my opinion brawling should look at both accuracy and fighting and just take whichever is higher.



                But let's go there and say you don't want this and you want it to be more 'equal', more 'fair'. Then there are several options:

                1) You combine Accuracy and Fighting into 1 stat
                This makes it easier for warriors to pick up weapons in the accuracy weapon groups. This has no benefit to mages/rogues, they are still 'stuck' with their given weapon group proficiencies.

                2) You open up weapon group proficiencies to everyone (either by leveling or via a talent)
                This wouldn't benefit warriors since they already have the option as is. This would allow mages/rogues to pick up fighting weapons - they would have to invest in the fighting ability to use them properly. This would also cause some oddities in damage as Rogues would suddenly deal a lot more damage with heavy weapons + pinpoint attack.

                3) You combine accuracy and fighting into 1 stat AND you open up weapon group proficiencies.
                The 'ultimate' choice for your players. Just 1 stat to hit and option to get any weapon. But as mentioned pinpoint attack would make it odd. Not to mention mages swinging around two handed axes seems a bit weird aswel.

                One could 'solve' the pinpoint attack by limiting it to accuracy weapons, but that would just add more rules.


                In other words, there are options to 'fix' this, but then when is it fair? and is it really needed?
                If you make it fair and equal for everyone, why use classes? They are there for a reason.

                If you want this freedom. I do believe there is someone on the forum who has a freeform version of Fantasy AGE, that might be a good option.

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                • #23
                  Re: Accuracy vs fighting

                  I've actually been toying with the idea of dumping the Fighting stat altogether. DA had Magic, but no fighting. FAge has Fighting, but no magic. I prefer fewer stats anyway, so combining the two philosophies makes sense to me.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Accuracy vs fighting

                    My group dropped Fighting and just had all attacks use Accuracy to hit. We haven't had any problems with it so far.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Accuracy vs fighting

                      Originally posted by Croquemitaine View Post
                      Well, since it's apparantly still 1982 where you live, Rogues only need to pick locks and backstab.

                      Or, to bring this conversation back on point, every attribute other than Fighting is broadly useful to every type of character:
                      - ANYONE might be forced to fight unarmed (Accuracy)
                      - ANYONE might need to bargain, lie to, or persuade an NPC of something (Communication)
                      - ANYONE might need to swim or resist poison or disease (Constitution), plus of course everyone can use more Health
                      - EVERYONE rolls Initiative, needs to avoid getting hit, and most likely needs to make a Stealth roll on occasion (Dexterity: Still the god-stat)
                      - ANYONE might need to perform first aid or recall some useful bit of knowledge (Intelligence)
                      - ANYONE might need to find an item or detect an ambush (Perception)
                      - ANYONE might need to climb, jump, or lift something, or you know, hit something for damage (Strength)
                      - ANYONE might need to make a courage/morale roll (Willlpower)

                      But only Warriors will ever need to roll Fighting.

                      Anyone can and will have to ignore some attributes when building their character, but Mages and Rogues get a freebie they can short-change with no downside (i.e. a pure dump stat). Warriors are always giving something up.
                      There's a difference between core functions and potential utility. Anyone might be forced to fight unarmed, true, but the likelihood of it is low, and the way to alleviate those rare chances is to have a backup weapon as often as it would be actual unarmed encounters.

                      Many of the others can easily be handled with a point or two and a focus - granted, not true dump stats, but also not a serious investment. And other situations can be handled by other party members, without any real side effects - how many times is first aid needed when the group isn't together?

                      And IMO, I think you're overrating DEX. Without initiative passes, a high initiative score doesn't grant anything extra, and in the opening rounds can actually be detrimental. The issue of Defense could be more important, but it would require heavy DEX investment without an equal return - equivalent Attack/Defense stats lead to the target being hit almost 2/3 of the time. If the attacker has a focus it jumps to about 5/6.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Accuracy vs fighting

                        Originally posted by Croquemitaine View Post
                        Well, since it's apparantly still 1982 where you live, Rogues only need to pick locks and backstab.

                        Or, to bring this conversation back on point, every attribute other than Fighting is broadly useful to every type of character:
                        And unless they pursue it strongly, it likely won't make any noticable difference. Anyone can be forced to do anything, but most groups will strenuously avoid having the non-specialists do most things if they can at all manage it, and it usually requires heavy GM intervention to prevent that 90% of the time. If my Warrior is forced to make a Persuade roll, a 2 Communication isn't much more to be successful in any serious case than a 0. Because unless they've deliberately chosen that, in most cases they won't be the ones doing that.

                        Edit: Of course some Warriors may well pursue some of these, and can do so pretty painlessly, since they'll be improving it with their off-attributes--but its always going to be more attractive to focus on some of them rather than spread around, so most of them are going to ignore some of them anyway. And unless the GM deliberately punishes them for it--and yes, I used the term quite intentionally--it won't be enough to justify not focusing on something else. There are pretty few Warriors who are going to find tossing a point in Communication until they've hit the diminishing point on their Will, unless the game lacks Will targeted disabling spells, for example. Same thing for Intelligence, again unless they're specialized in something that requires it as a side gig.

                        Its just not a game that favors spreading things around much.
                        Last edited by Darkdreamer; 4th December 2015, 08:50 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Accuracy vs fighting

                          I think, merging Accuracy into Fighting might work quite well.

                          Just keep the bonus damage separated.

                          I would suggest:

                          To-hit -> Fighting (for all)

                          former Fighting groups -> Strength as bonus damage

                          former Accuracy groups -> Perception as bonus damage (all, not just bows & black powder)

                          Defense -> Dexterity

                          Health -> Constitution

                          Now you have a nice separation and every ability grands a resonable benefit
                          Last edited by DracoDruid; 13th December 2015, 01:55 AM. Reason: clarification
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                          • #28
                            Re: Accuracy vs fighting

                            Most of your weapons should more be Dex to hit, or some type of Agi, as opposed to STR IMO.

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