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  • Accuracy vs fighting

    I don't know if this was posted earlier, but I was wondering why brawling, dueling, light blades and staves focuses are not under fighting. I read that accuracy was for finesse weapons, but the fighting should be for, well fighting. Accuracy should be for ranged weapons and throwing, then, you can add accuracy for damage, or strength for throwing. Fighting could use strength damage for heavy melee weapons and accuracy for finesse type weapons. Well, that's how I thing I'm going to run my game, has anyone tried this and does it work out ok?

  • #2
    Re: Accuracy vs fighting

    Originally posted by Graven View Post
    I don't know if this was posted earlier, but I was wondering why brawling, dueling, light blades and staves focuses are not under fighting. I read that accuracy was for finesse weapons, but the fighting should be for, well fighting. Accuracy should be for ranged weapons and throwing, then, you can add accuracy for damage, or strength for throwing. Fighting could use strength damage for heavy melee weapons and accuracy for finesse type weapons. Well, that's how I thing I'm going to run my game, has anyone tried this and does it work out ok?
    When using a sword, you must HIT. That's the objective. A sword slash can be critical, one can bleed to death from a single sword slash or have their bones penetrate their lungs with a battle hammer. Fighting Ability.

    When using a knife, or a rapier, you must pinpoint. A slash of a knife can only kill in certain points. You must be precise and swift. Same thing for a staff.

    That's fighting basics.

    And, by you logic, some throwing weapons should be in strenght, not accuracy.
    Last edited by Kazuyama; 23rd November 2015, 07:12 PM.

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    • #3
      Re: Accuracy vs fighting

      Originally posted by Graven View Post
      Accuracy should be for ranged weapons and throwing, then, you can add accuracy for damage, or strength for throwing. Fighting could use strength damage for heavy melee weapons and accuracy for finesse type weapons. Well, that's how I thing I'm going to run my game, has anyone tried this and does it work out ok?
      Using accuracy for damage?
      That would be an easy double bonus for any accuracy ranged weapon then.
      You would need accuracy to hit and then add accuracy to your damage? The combat-junky players would just only stack up Accuracy then. As a Ranged rogue for example you could just keep stacking accuracy.

      The current split in Fighting / Accuracy weapon groups seems to be mainly made with this in mind:

      Accuracy - with these weapons you need to hit a vital spot - just hitting your target anywhere with any part of the weapon won't do much good. So basically you need to aim.

      Fighting - with these weapons it's more about how well you handle the weapon to bypass your target's defenses - if you manage to do that - your strike, regardless of where it hits, will be brutal anyway.

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      • #4
        Re: Accuracy vs fighting

        I didn't think about the staking to hit and damage with accuracy, that won't work, thanks.

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        • #5
          Re: Accuracy vs fighting

          I suspect the simplest answer is for game balance and spread reasons; if you put everything under Fighting, Rogues have yet another attribute to deal with.

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          • #6
            Re: Accuracy vs fighting

            I feel the accuracy/perception and fighting/strength for hitting and damage model makes decent sense. Using a single stat for both will just make it too simple for a combat spec.

            What could be interesting is playing with the way each weapon group is categorized for stats.I have been playing with an idea of having a mixed category where some weapon groups can use either stat group for hit and damage calculations. Here are my potential weapon groups.

            Fighting:
            • Black Powder
            • Bludgeons
            • Heavy Blades

            Accuracy:
            • Bows
            • Lightblades
            • Staves

            Choice of Fighting or Accuracy:
            • Axes
            • Polearms
            • Brawling
            • Throwing Weapons

            The thinking is you can either do damage by raw strength or by hitting the right spot. Some weapon groups feel like they could do damage under both methods, while others require that specialist touch.

            PS: You don't see duelling or spears group because I folded them into other categories. Also lances (wut?).
            PPS: Guns might be a controversial switch but I think guns would represent the a new technology that would not be widespread in the world and you might only get that kind of training from an organized military. Also you need strength to carry and accurately fire a large gun. In a sharpshooter spec, id let the character treat it as either stat group.
            [URL="http://herdingdice.tumblr.com/"]Herding Dice[/URL] - A tumblr where I put things about Adventure Game Engine design.

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            • #7
              Re: Accuracy vs fighting

              I had the same issue with my players who were used to Savage Worlds, for them "Fighting" meant, well, fighting with all melee weapons.

              To clarify things with them I decided to rename "Fighting", it is now called "Brutality" which pairs up pretty good with Accuracy (and allowing some foci to be taken in either category : Brawl comes under Brutality but Martial Arts could come under Accuracy).

              Thinking of their character as either brutal or precise helps them have a better idea of their character as well.

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              • #8
                Re: Accuracy vs fighting

                Originally posted by Darkdreamer View Post
                I suspect the simplest answer is for game balance and spread reasons; if you put everything under Fighting, Rogues have yet another attribute to deal with.
                Because only Fighters should have to deal with all nine attributes?

                Seriously, Fighting is pure 100% dump stat for Rogues and Mages. The game even bent over backwards to make it so by allowing brawling and all weapons associated with Mages and Rogues to be used with Accuracy. Meanwhile, Fighters are still obligated to buy Accuracy if they want to use a ranged weapon or be able to fight unarmed. Every other attribute in the game is useful to all three classes. Only Fighting is relevant to just one class.

                Yes, attacking with power weapons and finesse weapons realistically requires a different skill set, but then again, Acrobatics and Lockpicking require utterly different forms of physicality and yet the game still only has one Dexterity stat. It's this type of inconsistent level of detail and simulationism that's soured me on the system.

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                • #9
                  Re: Accuracy vs fighting

                  Originally posted by Croquemitaine View Post
                  Because only Fighters should have to deal with all nine attributes?

                  Seriously, Fighting is pure 100% dump stat for Rogues and Mages. The game even bent over backwards to make it so by allowing brawling and all weapons associated with Mages and Rogues to be used with Accuracy. Meanwhile, Fighters are still obligated to buy Accuracy if they want to use a ranged weapon or be able to fight unarmed. Every other attribute in the game is useful to all three classes. Only Fighting is relevant to just one class.
                  Warriors can still use ranged weapons in the form of throwing axes and throwing spears, but I see where you're coming from.
                  If they would add another ranged option within fighting, perhaps it would give the warrior a bit more versatility when it comes to range. Now it's throwing weapon or pick up accuracy.
                  On the other hand, one could argue that rogues who use both a bow/black powder and a melee weapon have to dump stats in both strength and perception for added damage. Whereas Warriors with a fighting throwing weapon only have to dump stats in strength for added damage.

                  As for brawling - I wish it would fit under both accuracy and fighting, whichever is higher. Where from a viewer perspective accuracy brawling would be more or less like martial arts and fighting brawling more like boxing.

                  The main downside of fighting, in my opinion, is that outside of combat it has absolutely no use, while the other abilities have uses in both combat and outside of it.


                  Originally posted by Croquemitaine View Post
                  Yes, attacking with power weapons and finesse weapons realistically requires a different skill set, but then again, Acrobatics and Lockpicking require utterly different forms of physicality and yet the game still only has one Dexterity stat. It's this type of inconsistent level of detail and simulationism that's soured me on the system.
                  True, but in the end it's a game system, and you can't keep dividing your abilities, there are already 9 total, which is quite a lot.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Accuracy vs fighting

                    Originally posted by Gerben View Post
                    As for brawling - I wish it would fit under both accuracy and fighting, whichever is higher. Where from a viewer perspective accuracy brawling would be more or less like martial arts and fighting brawling more like boxing.
                    I completely agree with this.


                    True, but in the end it's a game system, and you can't keep dividing your abilities, there are already 9 total, which is quite a lot.
                    In this case I'm thinking the solution is to drop down to 8 (i.e. combine Accuracy and Fighting into one attribute) rather than expand any further. It's not meant to be a crunchy, simulationist game and most of my complaints with F-Age involve fiddly bits that really ought to be excised.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Accuracy vs fighting

                      Originally posted by Croquemitaine View Post
                      Because only Fighters should have to deal with all nine attributes?
                      Many fighters can completely ignore about five of them if they want to.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Accuracy vs fighting

                        Originally posted by Darkdreamer View Post
                        Many fighters can completely ignore about five of them if they want to.
                        Every character "can" ignore some attributes, and in fact has to, but the point is that every attribute other than Fighting is useful to everyone, whereas Fighting has absolute zero value to non-Fighters. Therefore Mages and Rogues have a handy dump-stat they can ignore with zero consequences, where they can stick a rolled -1 or -2 with no downside whatsoever. Fighters don't have that luxury.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Accuracy vs fighting

                          Fighting is generally of no use to mages or rogues, but there are always exceptions--for example, a race that has Weapon Group training as a possible benefit, like dwarves (axes) and orcs (bludgeons).
                          Tim Emrick, Freebooter, Keeper of the Freeport Errata
                          Winds of Freeport: my Pathfinder Freeport campaign (2014-2016).
                          Time of the Tarrasque: my next Pathfinder campaign (under development).
                          Studded Plate: my blog about RPGs, LEGO, and other geeky subjects.
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                          • #14
                            Re: Accuracy vs fighting

                            Originally posted by Croquemitaine View Post
                            Every character "can" ignore some attributes, and in fact has to, but the point is that every attribute other than Fighting is useful to everyone, whereas Fighting has absolute zero value to non-Fighters.
                            That doesn't mean the majority of them actually will find any value in them. I can pretty much promise that for their primary operating procedures, most Warriors can blow off Communication and Intelligence for an entire campaign and not care. There's a difference between that and an attribute being virtually mandated for something a class does regularly (like forcing Rogues to use Fighting for melee attacks). And even if you do force it, you're only applying the pain to Rogues since most mages aren't going to care about Fighting anyway.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Accuracy vs fighting

                              Originally posted by Darkdreamer View Post
                              most Warriors can blow off Communication and Intelligence
                              Says who? Seriously, this attitude can go die in a fire.

                              But if you really want to follow this path, Rogues can blow off Communication and Intelligence too, as well as Willpower. And with Pinpoint Attack giving them an extra die of damage, they can slack off on Strength too.

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