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  • Creating predictable model for raw weapon statistics

    Hi everybody, I have written a new article where I tackled weapon design and dice rolls in Fantasy AGE. Check it out here - http://herdingdice.tumblr.com/post/1...-weapon-design.

    TLDR - old model had weird outliers. Like comparing arqebus with long bow damage. I created a new model that makes it possible to dual wield 2h weapons and mages hold bastard sword with 2 hands. I did not reassign existing weapons to the new model categories. Might do that in another post. Those choices would be much more subjective, but a least they'd be more balanced
    [URL="http://herdingdice.tumblr.com/"]Herding Dice[/URL] - A tumblr where I put things about Adventure Game Engine design.

  • #2
    Re: Creating predictable model for raw weapon statistics

    Wow, nice writeup.

    This makes a lot more sense compared to the original model and will be a good guideline for assigning damage to homebrew weapons.

    I also like that you compare 1h and 2h strength requirement.

    I do have a question regarding dual wielding and the strength requirement.
    Basically wielding a weapon in 1hands requires twice the strength than wielding it in 2hands, which makes sense. But as soon as you're dual wielding weapons, you're carrying 2 weapons, wouldn't that mean you need to sum up the strength requirement for each hand?
    Since you're sort of 'using your strength' already so you can't use it on your other hand aswel.

    e.g. if you wield two weapons which each have a strength requirement of 2 when wielded as a 1h, would you need:

    2 strength for both weapons +2 for off-hand = a total of 4 strength
    2 strength for your main hand, 2+2 strength for your offhand = a total of 6 strength

    So basically do you feel that +2 requirement for dual wielding is bad enough or do you sum up the strength requirement in addition to adding the penalty?

    I guess another option would be to remove the penalty and sum up the strength requirement. Although that might be weird for weapons with a low strength requirement.
    Last edited by Gerben; 13th November 2015, 03:51 AM.

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    • #3
      Re: Creating predictable model for raw weapon statistics

      You're on a great line of thinking that I had not completely explored yet. What made me stop was how high the ability requirement was becoming and thought the potential imbalance would be taken care of how expensive it is to level a character to 6-8 strength (two points per str after 5). That warrior (or rogue I guess) would have painfully low Dex and Con compared to a warrior that stop gaining abilities after 5 points.

      That also being said imagine if there is some hidden variable that allows you to add strength on your attack roll, along with minimum strength as being able to "lift" the weapon. What if (think main hand for now) that hidden variable is instead spent on holding a 2h in 1h, making that attack roll only raw weapon damage.

      With that idea lets see what a character with 6 str hitting with a 2h sword, 1h style main hand. Its damage is 3d6 for an average of 10.5 with no str added. So to do the equivalent damage with a regular 1h weapon would be something like using a dagger (1d6+1) for 4.5 average plus 6 for strength. That seems to make sense.

      As for the offhand if you really went there could be the same raw weapon dmg but with +2 str extra requirement. Finally, since this kind of dual wield 2h thing fits in the "berserker" flavour of rpg, I can see a specialization rule where the strength(might) focus adds to their damage like veteran warrior spell at level 12.

      And finally, I have been playing around with the possibility of creating another weapon stat, something based on dexterity. This dex requirement would be used with a generalized quick attack. quick attack/shot has a -2 hit penalty. I think I could balance 1h and 2h weapons over damage output by making it more likely for a quick attack to succeed with high dex weapons (daggers) and much less likely with a low dex weapon (anything 2h). mid dex items would be somewhere in the middle.

      Thanks again for the comments, more feedback always welcome. By coming up with formulas and predictable rules, Fantasy AGE could be the best for creating homebrews.
      [URL="http://herdingdice.tumblr.com/"]Herding Dice[/URL] - A tumblr where I put things about Adventure Game Engine design.

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      • #4
        Re: Creating predictable model for raw weapon statistics

        This is a very interesting model; thanks for the work you put into it.

        In terms of wielding 2h weapons with one hand, especially the idea of dual wielding them, I think additional factors over and above pure strength should be taken into account. The main factor is wieldiness itself (I don't think there is actually such a word). 2h weapons tend to be long and awkward, with the weight distributed mostly towards the front. This is true even when the weapon isn't overly heavy (a well-made German two-handed greatsword only weighs between 7 and 8 pounds). As home-brewed weapon options are created (and existing ones are re-imagined), maybe some kind of unwieldiness penalty should be factored in (unless the wielder in question is more giant-sized and the weapon's length and balance are less of an issue).

        Just a thought.

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        • #5
          Re: Creating predictable model for raw weapon statistics

          Thanks Aden,

          I think your "unwieldiness" can still be converted to heaviness. Instead of raw kilograms you could consider the angular momentum required to swing. Like lifting a 4 litre jug of milk at arms length versus a 1 litre jug at the end of a broom, those would have similar "unwieldiness" (momentum) but different masses. I don't think you would need add to the model but just consider this momentum equivalence in picking a raw weapon stat.

          For example, when I finally match this new model to the FAGE weapons, a heavy 1h axe might be the same str requirement as a halberd due to the angular momentum considerations.
          [URL="http://herdingdice.tumblr.com/"]Herding Dice[/URL] - A tumblr where I put things about Adventure Game Engine design.

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          • #6
            Re: Creating predictable model for raw weapon statistics

            What I love about Fantasy Age is the simplicity.

            I really like the remodelled weapon table because it can be a standard and has a linear predictable growth.

            That said, I wouldn't add too much to the weapons 'just' to get the dual wielding right. I really like the strength requirement split in your weapon table between 1h and 2h. I would keep it at that and handle dual wielding either by adding up the strength requirement for each weapon if you wield two weapons or by adding +2 str requirement for the off-hand.

            In my opinion if you start adding too many new things like 'weight' (which is deliberately left out of the core rulebook for items and weapons) or 'unwieldiness' it will start to clutter the rules and can quickly become more complicated. If you add something, I feel it's best to use what's already there.

            If you feel like Berserkers should be able to dual wield 2handed weapons more easily, perhaps they could simply get a reduction on the strength requirement.

            As far as race size goes, instead of adding unwieldiness or heaviness to weapons (or weapon sizes like D&D uses), making it really complicated, perhaps you could add a 'modifier note' to the race, if it applies, to stats that already exists such as weapon damage and defense.
            e.g. Gnomes are tiny, so they get -1 on their strength modifier for weapon damage since they use smaller weapons and a +1 on defense since they're more difficult to hit. Giants are huge, so they get +1 on their strength modifier for weapon damage since they use bigger weapons and -1 on defense since they're a fairly easy target.

            This way you could more or less add those things in the game without adding all kinds of new stats and factors.
            Last edited by Gerben; 16th November 2015, 05:19 AM.

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            • #7
              Re: Creating predictable model for raw weapon statistics

              Hey!

              Maybe you wanna take a look into my Free-Form FAGE.

              I redid the weapons too and also added a price calculation formula.

              I would appreciate your input!
              Fantasy AGE Homebrew Wiki: Take me to the wiki!

              Free-Form Fantasy AGE System: Essentials - Version 2.5

              DracoDruid's Fantasy AGE: The Thread | Version 2.4

              Fantasy AGE - Revised Alchemy Rules: The Thread | Version 2.0

              Free-Form Dragon Age System: The Thread | Essentials

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              • #8
                Re: Creating predictable model for raw weapon statistics

                Hi Dracodruid, I read FFF a few weeks ago and liked what you did. Your damage table still suffers (not as bad though) from the same numbers noise as the original rules (R2 =0.66 vs 0.35 of FAGE). Worst offenders being the Arquebus, short bow, battle ax, Pistol. That is if you subscribe to the same damage model I did, directly predicting weapon damage from minimum strength. If you wanted to use my modified model, just pick the appropriate row from my table and use it in your rules.
                (edit shields were off, i just applied offhand rule of +2 and reduced their str requirement by two and your model improved from R2 of 0.42 to 0.66)

                Just now on a re-read I realized I was coming to some of the same conclusions you did for re-organizing the weapons groups. The quick notes of my re-org is going like this:
                • dueling group removed, rapiers moved to light blades
                • morning star swapped with maul
                • halberd moved to axes
                • merged polearms and spears, deleted military fork
                • create a throwing weapon group

                Here is the really controversial thing I am playing with. Axes, Polearms, Throwing and Shields can be Accuracy or Fighting, pick your flavour. Guns are now Fighting. All accuracy weapons add perception as damage (not just bows,guns). all fighting weapons add strength.

                Your formerly class talents (pin point, tactical, quick reflexes, etc) are catalysing some more balance ideas in my brain. So thanks for the engaging FFF rules
                Last edited by mdlthree; 16th November 2015, 01:57 PM.
                [URL="http://herdingdice.tumblr.com/"]Herding Dice[/URL] - A tumblr where I put things about Adventure Game Engine design.

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                • #9
                  Re: Creating predictable model for raw weapon statistics

                  How do you calculate your "R" ?
                  Fantasy AGE Homebrew Wiki: Take me to the wiki!

                  Free-Form Fantasy AGE System: Essentials - Version 2.5

                  DracoDruid's Fantasy AGE: The Thread | Version 2.4

                  Fantasy AGE - Revised Alchemy Rules: The Thread | Version 2.0

                  Free-Form Dragon Age System: The Thread | Essentials

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Creating predictable model for raw weapon statistics

                    If you create a scatter plot (in Excel or Google Sheets), there should be an option to add a linear trend. After the trend is added, there should be more options to display the equation of the line as well as the R2 on the chart. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coeffi..._determination
                    [URL="http://herdingdice.tumblr.com/"]Herding Dice[/URL] - A tumblr where I put things about Adventure Game Engine design.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Creating predictable model for raw weapon statistics

                      For which model exactly, my modified model had an R2 that high.

                      I create a table for the weapons with a column for:
                      Number of d6 rolls
                      plus/minus modifier
                      minimum strength
                      average damage (which equals 3.5*(number d6) + (modfier)

                      With the resultant table I delete duplicates (exactly the same roll/modifier/str) and then do the scatter plot with minimum strength as my x variable and average damage as my y variable. I end up with 20 data points to plot and do the R2. The following data is what I scraped from the FFF rules after i removed duplicate stats and should give you the 0.66 after charting.

                      Code:
                      name		roll		plus		str	ad
                      cud		1		0		0	3.5
                      l sheild	1		0		-1	3.5
                      dagger		1		0		0	3.5
                      m shield	1		1		0	4.5
                      hatch		1		2		1	5.5
                      h sheild	1		2		1	5.5
                      blund		1		2		1	5.5
                      mil fork	2		-1		1	6
                      mace		1		3		2	6.5
                      bastsword	1		3		1	6.5
                      pistol		1		3		0	6.5
                      long bow	1		3		2	6.5
                      b axe		2		0		3	7
                      long sword	2		0		2	7
                      glaive		2		1		2	8
                      2h spear	2		2		2	9
                      2h maul		2		3		4	10
                      h lance		2		3		3	10
                      arq		2		3		1	10
                      2 axe		3		0		4	10.5
                      [URL="http://herdingdice.tumblr.com/"]Herding Dice[/URL] - A tumblr where I put things about Adventure Game Engine design.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Creating predictable model for raw weapon statistics

                        I have published my basic balancing of FAGE weapons. Biggest changes were:
                        • Dueling Group - gauntlet added to brawling, rapier moved to light blades, buckler moved into a new shields group
                        • Spears Group - combined into a single polearms group
                        • Bludgeons and Staves - based on some simple research some weapons were swapped and renamed
                        • Throwing Weapons - renamed and placed as regular weapon in an appropriate group, ranges modified a bit
                        • Blunderbuss - could not balance this weapon area of effect mechanics - renamed short rifle with similar stats
                        • Bastard Sword - given both 1 handed and 2 handed versions


                        I am using great document tool at gitbook.com as a place to edit and hosted my house rules content. I like it better than dropbox/gdrive pdfs.
                        https://mdlthree.gitbooks.io/adventu...t/weapons.html
                        [URL="http://herdingdice.tumblr.com/"]Herding Dice[/URL] - A tumblr where I put things about Adventure Game Engine design.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Creating predictable model for raw weapon statistics

                          Hi everyone,

                          I have made some final changes to the balanced weapon model. There is a minor tweak to the formula and where the tables starts. Check out the write up at herdingdice.tumblr.com.

                          A link to the Google sheet.
                          https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...

                          As I said in the write up, this is as far as this kind of balancing can go. I have some opinions on how light, one handed, and two handed weapons should all have the same average damage output without the help of specializations. Tackling that problems requires changing some fundamental assumptions. These simple "smoothings" however don't upset how the game play at all. (Maybe a little since all weapons have a strength requirement)
                          [URL="http://herdingdice.tumblr.com/"]Herding Dice[/URL] - A tumblr where I put things about Adventure Game Engine design.

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