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  • Talent Tiers idea

    Hey everyone.

    I want to say to begin that i really like the Forum because i have gotten a lot of help designing my games using houserules and ideas from others and my ideas have gotten comments that have made me rethink my games a bit. so thank you all for helping not only me but others as well. keep up the friendliness and may fandom survive.

    Okay, to the topic at hand.

    My idea for Crest of Ruin was to go all the way to level 40. yes 40. i really want to expand the world and game to an extremely epic level, having the players challenge the gods themselves. (not really, but i think you see my point) anyway, i did some thinking and i realized that by the time the players reached level 30, there would be no more talents to fit the character. now both of my brothers and my sister-in-law all think that adding a 4th tier to the Talents will give the players more options when leveling up.

    My new idea is this tier system:
    Novice
    Journeyman
    Veteran
    Master

    Master will reserve the best option while Veteran grants a new set of bonuses. this could be an easy addition to the Talents and it prevents the addition of redundant Talents or useless ones.

    Also, i have cut out specs, since i am going with a Path System (Only because i have more than the 3 base classes). some of the Specs can become normal Talents if it seems necessary.

    Any ideas or comments on this subject?
    Last edited by VladGenX; 3rd October 2015, 09:53 AM.
    [URL="https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByE2hNokDtpAR0pWWHBadjJQdkU"]Age of Alchemy[/URL]
    [URL="https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByE2hNokDtpAY1JteV9mQjhxamc"]Battlemap Rules based on HeroScape[/URL]
    [URL="https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByE2hNokDtpAVzNDRUtWT0pjSnM"]Kingdom Hearts/Final Fantasy - Playtest version[/URL]
    [URL="https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByE2hNokDtpATDZrZUhXaHBJd00"]Magic Items Repository Volume 1[/URL]
    [URL="https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByE2hNokDtpAcHVOdVUtajJnV1k"]Magic Items Repository Volume 2[/URL]
    [URL="https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByE2hNokDtpAcWM5VWFhcXVZUEU"]FAGE-TitansGrave Random Character Generator[/URL]
    [URL="https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByE2hNokDtpANUxzNHo2aDYxejA"]20 races for FAGE...enjoy[/URL]
    [URL="https://vladgenx.wordpress.com/"]https://vladgenx.wordpress.com/[/URL] This is my new log Site i just created. it is going to have fantasy short story snippets for you guys. Enjoy

  • #2
    Re: Talent Tiers idea

    I think it sounds reasonable.

    I would love to see your end result on the Path system. I am interested in more Classes as well.

    I kind of want to mix Edge of the Empire Careers/Specializations with FAGE Action Resolution.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Talent Tiers idea

      The beauty of FAGE is that everything is streamlined and easy to adjust.

      In addition to adding a fourth tier to talents, you can also add a fourth tier to specializations and arcanas since they have the same format, but maybe this was already implied.

      But yeah, seems reasonable, especially if you go up to level 40.

      I'm quite curious about your path system, I'm not familiar with it, I'm guessing it suggest a streamlined leveling path?



      On a sidenote: When I started reading I thought it was going to be about tiers in levels.. (i.e. upto level 10 you're a novice, lvl 11-20 you're a journeyman etc..) which would highly streamline your leveling progress.. I guess but maybe fun in it's own way. oh well.. my mind wanders.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Talent Tiers idea

        I don't think there is a need to revamp the entire talent levels/degrees/tiers system.

        You can either just add an Epic degree to the talents, or create a separate batch of Epic talents altogether. Should also work for Arcana and spells.

        And I'm also on the same boat about the Specializations. They feel and operate just like talents. In my game, I've made it so that they don't mess with your talent slots. They also don't have the three-tier system: You grab one, and the benefits just come to you at the right levels. Just like Prestige Classes (D&D3.5) and Archetypes (D&D5E).

        Mine is a classless system, however, and so my Specialization mechanics might not mesh well with yours - but I think the concepts are largely similar.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Talent Tiers idea

          If you're going to go to level 40, a 4th and maybe even 5th talent tier would be necessary, I'd think.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Talent Tiers idea

            Actually, I'm in favor of breaking the talent tiers at the epic stages. This should give them an even more epic feel.

            I suggest just making an entire batch of epic talents that are not directly tied to the usual talents. Sure, maybe the epic talent will require the Master degree of the lower talent, but the epic talent will operate much more differently, hopefully going beyond just providing a numerical bonus here, an SP reduction there, or whatnot.

            For example, you can have the Epic Thrower talent, which allows the PC to have the thrown weapon return to him immediately, so that he can throw the same weapon as many times as he has number of attacks. Or the Epic Dual-Weapon Fighter talent, which allows the PC to keep on attacking alternately with her two weapons for as long as her previous attack hit a target, perhaps only limited by her Constitution score or something.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Talent Tiers idea

              I grabbed my smoothed class leveling path from Jack's specialization thread of a few weeks ago. Extrapolating the repeating patterns out to level 40 created a total of 27 talents, 5 stunt bonuses, 10 class talents, 15 specialization talents. That is a ton. I think at your extra level the power creep from high tier talents could be out of control making it quite difficult for you to design encounters that are balanced.

              My analysis so far on existing talents has found the following values for talents and specializations:
              • Regular Talents are worth about 2 points per tier
              • Specialization Talents are worth 2,3,4 point per increased tier.

              This means scaling regular talents into higher tiers should remain relatively controlled. Specialization talents on the same path however would reach 5,6,7 points. Possible solution could be to cap higher specialization tier at 4 points per level.

              Other discussion points
              • Why not reduce xp awarded by half to extend the game?
              • You will likely also find that the standard weapons and the magic items benefits (pg 118 rule book) will also be outclassed.


              This extension idea is really cool and might benefit from some of the models I have been building to remove the guess work from the game. Keep posting about your challenges and it might keep me motivated to produce analysis.
              [URL="http://herdingdice.tumblr.com/"]Herding Dice[/URL] - A tumblr where I put things about Adventure Game Engine design.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Talent Tiers idea

                To be fair, though, power creep is already fairly prevalent. Test results move from being an issue of pass/fail to stunts/no stunts. IMO, AGE is great 1-5, less so 6-10, but then its issues really rear their heads. To scale the game to 40, you would have to alter the underlying system - but IMO you have to do that to play to 20.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Talent Tiers idea

                  Originally posted by shonuff View Post
                  To be fair, though, power creep is already fairly prevalent.
                  What do you think of scaling back ability focuses to only +1 per advancement. Allow choice of +2 at level 8 , +3 at level 16. Could even only allow +2 at level 11. I feel the power creep is on the roll side. Damage / HP side might be OK for now. Other option is to the defense from 10 + Dex to 8+ Dex, I have some math that supports that choice.
                  [URL="http://herdingdice.tumblr.com/"]Herding Dice[/URL] - A tumblr where I put things about Adventure Game Engine design.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Talent Tiers idea

                    Originally posted by shonuff View Post
                    To be fair, though, power creep is already fairly prevalent. Test results move from being an issue of pass/fail to stunts/no stunts. IMO, AGE is great 1-5, less so 6-10, but then its issues really rear their heads. To scale the game to 40, you would have to alter the underlying system - but IMO you have to do that to play to 20.
                    The question I have is then, how would one alter the underlying system? What is causing the fault line?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Talent Tiers idea

                      to be truly honest here, i forgot all about this thread. it has been so long since i made it i have forgotten about it.

                      In est, i have abandoned my original idea and have gone back down to level 20, taking a ton of inspiration from D&D 5e. now Crest of Ruin is on the back burner because i want to write the books first, then get an RPG going. But some of the ideas and concepts i have retained to use with other games. For example, i am working on a Romantic Fantasy campaign setting called Legends of Lor. it takes place in a unique world with only 4 races and many changes to the base system while retaining the very heart of it. it is a ton of cosmetic changes.

                      There are 3 Classes with 3 Class Archetypes each. each Class has 9 PATHS (basically Specializations) and each Archetype has 3 Favored Paths.
                      CLASS
                      WARRIOR
                      Barbarian: Barbarians are in tune with an inner rage and can shake off blows that can stun normal people
                      Fighter: Fighters may not have formal training like a Knight but still have a deposition for weapon combat
                      Knight: Knights are formally trained in combat and command and begin with training on horseback
                      ROGUE
                      Thief: Thieves use their stealth and cunning to steal and hide
                      Scout: Scouts are trained to spy and relay information
                      Ranger: Rangers are specialists with ranged weapons
                      MAGE
                      Wizard: A Wizard has a natural talent for magic
                      Druid: Druids are connected to the forces of nature as opposed to the Arcane
                      Healer: Healers are given powers from the gods themselves

                      Any Archetype can use a Path from another in their Class but must fulfill ALL requirements. if an Archetype has a Favored Path, then they only have to fulfill ONE of the requirements (Usually there is only 2 requirements, so it is simple). Some Paths add the capabilities of another class but for the most part, no class can take a Path from another. So a Mage cannot become a Berserker for example.

                      WARRIOR PATHS:
                      Barbarian Favored: Berserker, Reaver, Juggernaut
                      Fighter Favored: Duelist, Hex Blade, Weapon Master
                      Knight Favored: Guardian, Mage Hunter, Champion

                      ROGUE PATHS:
                      Thief Favored: Swashbuckler, Shadow, Acrobat
                      Scout Favored: Assassin, Agent, Investigator
                      Ranger Favored: Sharpshooter, Hunter, Beastmaster

                      MAGE PATHS:
                      Wizard Favored: Artificer, Weaver, Sword Mage
                      Druid Favored: Shaman, Shapeshifter, Sage
                      Healer Favored: Miracle Worker: Force Mage, Herald

                      This system provides a ton of options while remaining simple and easy to use without having to add a 4th level to Talents or Arcana. The magic system will go back to Dragon Age with Schools instead of Arcana Talents.

                      Anyway, have fun and keep the dice rolling.
                      [URL="https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByE2hNokDtpAR0pWWHBadjJQdkU"]Age of Alchemy[/URL]
                      [URL="https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByE2hNokDtpAY1JteV9mQjhxamc"]Battlemap Rules based on HeroScape[/URL]
                      [URL="https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByE2hNokDtpAVzNDRUtWT0pjSnM"]Kingdom Hearts/Final Fantasy - Playtest version[/URL]
                      [URL="https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByE2hNokDtpATDZrZUhXaHBJd00"]Magic Items Repository Volume 1[/URL]
                      [URL="https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByE2hNokDtpAcHVOdVUtajJnV1k"]Magic Items Repository Volume 2[/URL]
                      [URL="https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByE2hNokDtpAcWM5VWFhcXVZUEU"]FAGE-TitansGrave Random Character Generator[/URL]
                      [URL="https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByE2hNokDtpANUxzNHo2aDYxejA"]20 races for FAGE...enjoy[/URL]
                      [URL="https://vladgenx.wordpress.com/"]https://vladgenx.wordpress.com/[/URL] This is my new log Site i just created. it is going to have fantasy short story snippets for you guys. Enjoy

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Talent Tiers idea

                        Originally posted by mdlthree View Post
                        What do you think of scaling back ability focuses to only +1 per advancement. Allow choice of +2 at level 8 , +3 at level 16. Could even only allow +2 at level 11. I feel the power creep is on the roll side.
                        If you slow focus growth too much then I think you run the risk of infinitesimally slow growth. There's just not that much of a net difference between a +3 and a +(3+1). Look at ability advancements - it's not fun to spend 4 levels for 1 stat point.

                        Damage / HP side might be OK for now.
                        I personally lean to damage being too low.

                        Other option is to the defense from 10 + Dex to 8+ Dex, I have some math that supports that choice.
                        I'd be interested in seeing that. IMO people hit too often as-is.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Talent Tiers idea

                          Originally posted by Sidran View Post
                          The question I have is then, how would one alter the underlying system? What is causing the fault line?
                          IMO, the largest flaw is the start value is too high for 3d6. You begin to auto hit at +7/+8 because of the bell curve. however if you attempt to modify the TN to challenge the player, the encounter is an impossibility.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Talent Tiers idea

                            The magic system will go back to Dragon Age with Schools instead of Arcana Talents.
                            IMO, the Arcana system would have been fine had it been first. Too simple, IMO, but that's preference. But going from D-AGE to F-AGE definitely feels more cookie cutter ish.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Talent Tiers idea

                              Originally posted by shonuff View Post
                              IMO, the largest flaw is the start value is too high...
                              You mean during the "Determining Starting Abilities" step of character creation. I agree. One small change to the table of rolls is quite easy. Take one of the "3" values and make it a "1". A more radical change could be changing the range of starting values from -2 to 4 and instead -3 to 3. I don't feel a -3 is exceptionally high. Although I hope anyone with -3 constitution does something about it.
                              [URL="http://herdingdice.tumblr.com/"]Herding Dice[/URL] - A tumblr where I put things about Adventure Game Engine design.

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