Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Ranged backstab?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Ranged backstab?

    Just a quick, simple query - can a rogue "backstab" (or feint or surprise attack, as the feat should perhaps be termed) an opponent with a ranged weapon? If not, the ranged rogue also misses out on "bluff" do, do they not?

    If they do miss out on those feats, is that not quite a disadvantage to ranged rogues? Are they compensated in other ways? I can see "lethality" and "quick shot", but they don't seem as powerful as backstab and bluff.

  • #2
    Re: Ranged backstab?

    Yeah, D-Age rogues are strange: Backstab, Perforate and Bluff are melee only, and Quick shot is ranged only, making the Rogue divided between two fighting range.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Ranged backstab?

      Originally posted by Parsival View Post
      Just a quick, simple query - can a rogue "backstab" (or feint or surprise attack, as the feat should perhaps be termed) an opponent with a ranged weapon? If not, the ranged rogue also misses out on "bluff" do, do they not?

      If they do miss out on those feats, is that not quite a disadvantage to ranged rogues? Are they compensated in other ways? I can see "lethality" and "quick shot", but they don't seem as powerful as backstab and bluff.
      Nothing in the core rule book definition of Backstab specified it applies to melee attacks only... where as the original Set 1 text EXPLICITLY says "melee attack". Now, Bluff (the Level 4 Rogue ability) DOES explicitly mention Melee attacks (and implies that Back stab, the level one ability, is melee only too).

      There was some discussion during the play test of set three regarding back stab and bluff; my personal house rule:

      Rogues Back-stab
      A rogue can Back-stab with a ranged weapon against a non-adjacent opponent whom is unaware of them – they must take an AIM minor action and succeed at the same Dexterity (Stealth) vs Perception (Seeing) test as a melee back stab, but gain only a +1 to hit (as per the Aim action) but a full +1D6 to damage. Note that an initial shot from cover at some distance is likely to grant the Rogue significant bonuses to the Dexterity (Stealth) roll – but once they have started shooting it will NOT be possible to Back-stab at range again unless their target completely loses track of them again – such as through the application of the fourth level rogue ability Bluff.
      cheers,

      Nick

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Ranged backstab?

        Originally posted by NickMiddleton View Post
        Nothing in the core rule book definition of Backstab specified it applies to melee attacks only... where as the original Set 1 text EXPLICITLY says "melee attack".
        It described backstab as a melee attack in the Class description, but as you said, not explicitly in the ability description. That said, it *does* say you move toward your opponent, which doesn't make sense with a ranged attack.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Ranged backstab?

          Maybe there's been an errata, but in my Core rulebook, Backstab's descritpion mentions:

          ''You must approach your opponent with a move action If attacking with a melee weapon.''

          Suggesting you're not forced to use to move closer IF you're not using a melee weapon, meaning a ranged attack is a discting possibility.

          but then, Bluff says something opposed to this reading:

          ''As usual with a Backstab, you make a melee attack with a +2 bonus and inflict +1d6 extra damage if you hit.''

          saying Backstab is indeed a melee attack, not an ''if''.
          Last edited by vincegetorix; 10-05-2016, 08:02 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Ranged backstab?

            Lethality is far and away superior to backstab/bluff. Backstab is basically +1d6 damage/turn. Lethality is like +5 damage per attack. A marksman rogue can potentially get iirc 5 attacks/round. 25 damage? Or 3.5?

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Ranged backstab?

              Just checked as I have the two PDF's available here and:

              Version 1.1 of the core book pdf:
              Back stab: You can inflict extra damage with an attack if you can strike an opponent from an unexpected direction or catch them unawares. You must approach your opponent with a move action If attacking with a melee weapon. Then you must win an opposed test of your Dexterity (Stealth) vs. your target’s Perception (Seeing). If you win the test, you can use your major action this round to Backstab him. This is an attack with a +2 bonus to the attack roll that inflicts +1d6 extra damage. You cannot Backstab an enemy that you begin your turn adjacent to (but see the Bluff power at level 4. .
              Version 1.2 of the core book pdf:
              Back stab: You can inflict extra damage with an attack if you can strike an opponent from an unexpected direction or catch them unawares. You must approach your opponent with a move action. Then you must win an opposed test of your Dexterity (Stealth) vs. your target’s Perception (Seeing). If you win the test, you can use your major action this round to Backstab him. This is an attack with a +2 bonus to the attack roll that inflicts +1d6 extra damage. You cannot
              Backstab an enemy that you begin your turn adjacent to (but see the Bluff power at level 4).
              So the reference to "melee" attack was removed between 1.1 and 1.2 of the core book. My hard copy is at home, but I think the text in mine matches the 1.2 pdf... *shrug* reinforces my reasons for my house rule, posted above.

              Cheers,

              Nick

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Ranged backstab?

                The hard copy matches your 1.2, and the wording for Bluff still makes it apparent that Backstab RAW is a melee attack. The house rule presented is fine, but I have two caveats:

                1. A successful Stealth vs. Seeing test with movement would allow for another backstab. This would keep rules consistent.

                2. Lethality is applied to all attacks.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Ranged backstab?

                  Originally posted by shonuff View Post
                  Lethality is far and away superior to backstab/bluff. Backstab is basically +1d6 damage/turn. Lethality is like +5 damage per attack. A marksman rogue can potentially get iirc 5 attacks/round. 25 damage? Or 3.5?
                  Yes, my groups archer has loved his Rogue once he got him to this level. 1d6+3 for longbow, +5 for Perception, now an additional +5 for Cunning. Letting him hit for 1d6+13 per attack. That's without having a magical bow/rune that could up his damage even more.
                  The Untouchable, the Avenger.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Ranged backstab?

                    Is there any final answer to this question? I asked me the same an i think i remember, that quickshot says, you cannot combine it with backstab. Which would be superfluous if backstab was melee only.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Ranged backstab?

                      They don't really clarify rules other than HP is not retroactive.

                      AFAIK, backstab is melee only. FAGE changed it -- Pinpoint Attack -- and it became melee or ranged.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Ranged backstab?

                        I've always allowed folks to use backstab with ranged attacks, they just have to use a minor action for the Dexterity (Stealth) test to "snipe" the shot. Bluff has to be used with a melee attack.
                        If you enjoy the AGE system you might enjoy our podcast, The Adventure Game Engine Interest Series (The AGEIS)! Formerly known as the Wonders of Thedas, we talk about all iterations of the AGE system from Dragon Age to the Expanse! We do actual plays as well as discussion episodes where we take listener questions, feature fan creations, and share news about the AGE systems! Step through the portals to see the many worlds they hide!

                        You can follow us on Facebook and Twitter, listen to us on Soundcloud, Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Spotify, and other places you get podcasts! You can contact us through our social media, Soundcloud, or by emailing us at ageipodcast@gmail.com !

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Ranged backstab?

                          This is something we have tried out at our games.

                          Ranged Rogues:
                          Point blank shot - Per (Seeing) Vs Dex (Acrobatics) must be within 5 squares.
                          Later gain Snipe shot - Dex (Stealth) Vs Per (Seeing) must be beyond 10 squares
                          The Untouchable, the Avenger.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Ranged backstab?

                            The problem with ranged backstabs is unless you rework Lethality, you're pigeonholing rogues into ranged attackers.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Ranged backstab?

                              hmm. I think i will let it melee only then. Seems to be the better option

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X