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  • my players found a first aid loophole

    this has probably come up before, but it happened in my game last night.

    a player used first aid to heal an ally. the healing roll wasn't very good and he only recovered a single hit point. The healing player asked if she could do it again on her next turn. I said no, not until he takes more damage.

    so the "healed" player says, i stab myself to take damage and now she can heal me again.

    O.o

    So, how can i prevent the players from just using first aid over and over again after combat as a full heal option? Obviously, the damage thing didn't work.

  • #2
    Re: my players found a first aid loophole

    Cap the first aid at the fresh damage.

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    • #3
      Re: my players found a first aid loophole

      Ask the player what kind of sane person would do something like that. Also with taking a breather (five minute break after combat gives 5+Constitution+level hit points), sleeping (8 hours gives 10+Constitution+level hit points), and the heal spell (1-18 hit points per casting), why do they even need to do this?
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      • #4
        Re: my players found a first aid loophole

        How do you prevent players doing that?

        By saying "No, it doesn't work that way." You tell them that you're all there for the shared experience, and the rules are there to serve them in storytelling, not be abused.

        The rules are tools to aid in roleplay, simulating environments and situations, and to provide a gamified story. These rules are also at the whim of GMs.

        It's up to you, as GM, to dictate when they can and can't use it. If they abuse the rules, you don't let them use it.

        There's a concept, known as "Rule 7" among some groups, which simply states "Don't take the piss." Call upon this rule.

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        • #5
          Re: my players found a first aid loophole

          Originally posted by OzMills View Post
          How do you prevent players doing that?

          By saying "No, it doesn't work that way." You tell them that you're all there for the shared experience, and the rules are there to serve them in storytelling, not be abused.

          The rules are tools to aid in roleplay, simulating environments and situations, and to provide a gamified story. These rules are also at the whim of GMs.

          It's up to you, as GM, to dictate when they can and can't use it. If they abuse the rules, you don't let them use it.

          There's a concept, known as "Rule 7" among some groups, which simply states "Don't take the piss." Call upon this rule.
          Oh, so *that's* Rule 7--now I know why the GM invoked it when he put the kibosh on my character's urine-stealing operation.
          In all seriousness, I think OzMills has the right of it--just tell the players that it's silly and breaks immersion, and that (even though the rules don't expressly forbid it) healing doesn't work that way.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: my players found a first aid loophole

            Originally posted by DrawGreeny View Post
            Oh, so *that's* Rule 7--now I know why the GM invoked it when he put the kibosh on my character's urine-stealing operation.
            In all seriousness, I think OzMills has the right of it--just tell the players that it's silly and breaks immersion, and that (even though the rules don't expressly forbid it) healing doesn't work that way.
            Has "Take the piss" for "Take the Mick" or "Make mockery of" not traversed the Atlantic from the UK? :P

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            • #7
              Re: my players found a first aid loophole

              No. We are more fecal-oriented.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: my players found a first aid loophole

                Originally posted by Halo299 View Post
                this has probably come up before, but it happened in my game last night.

                a player used first aid to heal an ally. the healing roll wasn't very good and he only recovered a single hit point. The healing player asked if she could do it again on her next turn. I said no, not until he takes more damage.

                so the "healed" player says, i stab myself to take damage and now she can heal me again.

                O.o

                So, how can i prevent the players from just using first aid over and over again after combat as a full heal option? Obviously, the damage thing didn't work.
                That was a hilarious interpreation of the rules
                I don't see a problem with it if they wish to waste an entire round during combat to do this. If you want them to stop, just say that the damage must come from enemies. Good luck on your adventures!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: my players found a first aid loophole

                  Originally posted by Whyrus View Post
                  That was a hilarious interpreation of the rules
                  I don't see a problem with it if they wish to waste an entire round during combat to do this. If you want them to stop, just say that the damage must come from enemies. Good luck on your adventures!
                  Be aware that in this situation they may say "This rat bit me", or "Bob here is my enemy, stab me Bob. Ow. Now we are no longer enemies".

                  Rule 7.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: my players found a first aid loophole

                    Originally posted by OzMills View Post
                    Be aware that in this situation they may say "This rat bit me", or "Bob here is my enemy, stab me Bob. Ow. Now we are no longer enemies".

                    Rule 7.
                    Sounds like out of battle situations and never forget that the GM has the say so if needed.
                    The above examples are easily to work around as a GM.

                    Rat
                    Either it deals no damage or let them have an infection to battle with fatigue and lowered stats until they are healty, if they get healthy...

                    Bob
                    Why would Bob stab them? If he stabs them, would he use a 2h sword? People usually don't go into berserker mode and attack another person, unless it's a true flight or fight situation.

                    The players are a vital part of the story (adventure), but are they the narrators? If the answer is yes, then the GM to do some hard thinking of what he/she wish to accomplice with the game.
                    I have a hard time seeing a GM that would allow the players to play the NPC's (unless using some sort of mind control spell).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: my players found a first aid loophole

                      Originally posted by Halo299 View Post
                      this has probably come up before, but it happened in my game last night.

                      a player used first aid to heal an ally. the healing roll wasn't very good and he only recovered a single hit point. The healing player asked if she could do it again on her next turn. I said no, not until he takes more damage.

                      so the "healed" player says, i stab myself to take damage and now she can heal me again.

                      O.o

                      So, how can i prevent the players from just using first aid over and over again after combat as a full heal option? Obviously, the damage thing didn't work.
                      Keep in mind that a first aid test heals cunning + dragon die in damage. If the healer has 0 (or less) cunning then thats the only way you could get just the 1 point (cant recall if DA has reduced healing effectivness).

                      If you dont want to rule it out have them roll for weapon damage and take that much (no armour), given a heal check isnt always successful anyway and then heals only minor amounts thats up against a dagger's base damage (they usualy have a sharp edge so I'd disclude strength in that case, though I'd add str for blunt damage) at the lowest end.
                      The result would mean that the daggers 1d6+1 is up against the skill test and only if successful gaining back 1d6 + cunning. The player may well end up with more damage at the end of it all. Cutting one self isnt an encounter so no breather recovery either.

                      Even then its likely going to annoy the healer that just treated the character's wounds.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: my players found a first aid loophole

                        I'd let him stab himself, I mean what's the worst that can happen if you stab yourself with a blade you use to fight Darkspawn... :-)

                        (If the player himself doesn't have medical knowledge he might not even know where not to stab.. ops give me another roll not to pick somewhere important, I'd certainly focus on the word "stab" but I am in a bit of a funny mood this morning hahaha).

                        He might even start hearing voices telling him to do other unusual acts (Maybe from a blood mage).
                        Last edited by Mayii; 09-26-2014, 01:25 AM.

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                        • #13
                          Re: my players found a first aid loophole

                          Originally posted by Mayii View Post
                          I'd let him stab himself, I mean what's the worst that can happen if you stab yourself with a blade you use to fight Darkspawn... :-)

                          (If the player himself doesn't have medical knowledge he might not even know where not to stab.. ops give me another roll not to pick somewhere important, I'd certainly focus on the word "stab" but I am in a bit of a funny mood this morning hahaha).

                          He might even start hearing voices telling him to do other unusual acts (Maybe from a blood mage).

                          Oh, man--I hadn't even considered that the players' little scheme could transfer the Darkspawn taint! That being the case, I've changed my mind; let them try to game the system, only to have one or more of them fall prey to a mysterious illness shortly after fighting a group of Darkspawn. Maybe the afflicted character even starts hearing this strangely compelling song (i.e. the call of the Archdemon). If you don't want the characters fighting darkspawn (or the characters are all Grey Wardens, who are technically already tainted), you could have one of them contract some other disease--maybe something similar to the Amber Rage.

                          Mayii's mention of blood mages brings up another possibility--maybe an outside observer sees the characters stabbing one another after a battle, and becomes convinced that they're performing blood magic. This person reports the PCs to the Chantry...so now they've got Templars chasing after them, convinced that any mages in the group have turned maleficar, and possibly have the rest of the party in their thrall.

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                          • #14
                            Re: my players found a first aid loophole

                            This is all pretty clever.

                            I think the issue I have with it is that the players were thinking in game turns and not as there character would see the situation. As someone pointed out before, no one would do this. "Healing" doesn't work with skill checks and hit points, that is just how the game presents it, because it's a game and it needs to be fun and accessible. Not filled with amputations and infections.

                            So, in universe solutions don't work, because the players are already thinking outside the universe to even come up with this idea.

                            I like the capping the amount of hit points at the damage taken since the last healing.
                            It just requires a little paperwork.

                            Another idea I came up with was to limit the number of times a character could be healed (without magic) each day at say 4 or something. After that the character needs a long rest before healing starts working again.

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                            • #15
                              Re: my players found a first aid loophole

                              I completely respect and even agree with what your saying (a lot will depend on the group itself) and another simple out of game solution might just be to ask what's your characters motivation for doing this? or a house rule like the ones you've suggested they get done all the time.

                              However, one concern I would have is if I am using rules to restrict certain behaviour that's not going to stop the players thinking from a rules point of view.

                              If actions have cause and effect and now they are off on a difficult quest because of the actions of one of them it becomes part of the story, part of the characters history, or maybe I just think it would be funnier to let him stab himself to see what happens :-)

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