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  • DC's Convergence

    So, if you were like me, you were hoping that Convergence might be a way to get the Pre-Flashpoint DCU back, possibly by incorporating some of the decent aspects of the Nu-52 as a compromise.

    Instead, it looks like this is going to be the final send-off to the Post-Crisis Universe.

    http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=56990

    SUPERMAN
    Writer: Dan Jurgens
    Artist Lee Weeks and Dan Jurgens/Norm Rapmund
    Superman and Lois deal with the impending birth of their child as he is called in to protect the city.

    THE ATOM
    Writer: Tom Peyer
    Artist: Steve Yeowell / Andy Owens
    Ray Palmer finds that Ryan Choi is still alive. Together, they meet and confront Deathstroke, the man responsible for “killing” Choi, before fighting the invading Extremists.

    BATGIRL
    Writer: Alisa Kwitney
    Artist: Rick Leonardi and Mark Pennington
    After a year in the dome, Stephanie Brown is not sure she wants to be Batgirl again. But when Flashpoint Catman attacks, Red Robin and Black Bat call her back into service.

    NIGHTWING/ORACLE
    Writer: Gail Simone
    Artist: Jan Duursema and Dan Parsons
    Dick Grayson and Barbara Gordon reevaluate their relationship under the dome (wedding!), but Flashpoint Hawkman & Hawkwoman attack, and everything changes.

    SPEED FORCE
    Writer: Tony Bedard
    Artist: Tom Grummett and Sean Parsons
    Wally West and his kids are separated from Linda, which was bad enough, but when the dome falls, Flashpoint Wonder Woman comes for them.

    TITANS
    Writer: Fabian Nicieza
    Artist: Ron Wagner and Jose Marzan
    Starfire and Donna Troy come to get Roy Harper who has gone into seclusion since the death of his child and loss of his arm, but then Arsenal has to choose between his team and resurrecting his dead daughter.

    JUSTICE LEAGUE
    Writer: Frank Tieri
    Artist: Vicente Cifuentes
    When Supergirl, Zatanna, and Jade went to Jessie Quick's baby shower, they didn't expect to be taken to another planet for a year, or to be attacked by Flashpoint Aquaman.

    QUESTION
    Writer: Greg Rucka
    Artist: Cully Hamner
    Two-Face is fighting another world's Harvey Dent, and it's up to Renee Montoya as the Question to help him beat the odds.

    BATMAN & ROBIN
    Writer: Ron Marz
    Artist: Denys Cowan and Klaus Janson
    Bruce Wayne and Damian have friction with Red Hood before the Extremists attack.

    HARLEY QUINN
    Writer: Steve Pugh
    Artist: Phil Winslade and John Dell
    Harley Quinn is enjoying her normal life under the dome until Catwoman and Poison Ivy draft her to fight Captain Carrot.
    Now, the idea is probably to try and bring back old fans, give the characters they loved some closure, and hopefully mend some fences. It might even be kind of a nice little self jab of how Flashpoint 'killed' the old DCU, and might indeed might be some kind of merge of the two continuities together. But what this initially feels like is DC bringing back the old continuity for a series of one-shots before just going back to the Nu-52. So basically they're saying "Hey, remember those old characters you like? The optimistic heroes and fun universe? Well, here they are, being attacked by the people from the event that got rid of them in the first place, before we go back to the dark universe with the decisions that drove most of you away to begin with."

    Or to paraphrase the sage Lewis Black:

    The guy that proposed the Nu-52 stands up in DC and says 'I GOT A REALLY BAD IDEA!!' and the Convergence guy stands up after him and says 'AND I CAN MAKE IT SHITTIER!!'
    Last edited by Ares; 11-12-2014, 12:03 PM.
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  • #2
    Re: DC's Convergence

    I get lost with all of these shifts: pre-Flashpoint, Flashpoint, then Nu-52, now Convergence.

    Did DC explain how they can go back to a previous era while still having characters from the newest era attacking them? This just sounds like a whole bunch of crazy with no real explanation to the fans!

    I think you are correct Ares that it is all about teasing the fans (and making money from them by seeming to give them what they want), but really only to trick them for a few pages of "golden-oldie goodness" from times past. Then it is right back to the current era of Nu-52 leaving the fans to say "wtf"?!?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: DC's Convergence

      Yes. 40...count them 40, two issue mini-series that accomplish...what? What I don't understand is the whole concept of "under the dome" that keeps getting mentioned, as if the old DCU exists as a pocket universe with a clearly defined boundary.

      The Dome. Wasn't this a television show a year or two back? So we're going to celebrate something the company killed with something that failed. The cynic in me is not impressed.

      The comic fan in me may have to find a way to get ahold of at least some of the mini-series anyway.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: DC's Convergence

        Hey remember all those characters you really liked that we got rid of? Here's a reminder of what they were like and notice that they're never coming back!

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: DC's Convergence

          Originally posted by Horsenhero View Post
          What I don't understand is the whole concept of "under the dome" that keeps getting mentioned, as if the old DCU exists as a pocket universe with a clearly defined boundary.
          I think its the domed cities from various realities that exist on Brainiac's "Blood Moon," the setting for the event. I haven't actually been reading Future's End, which I think is what has been setting this up, so I don't actually know for sure.

          Now, to be a minority opinion here: I'm glad they're not bringing the old DCU back. I started reading comics regularly with the New 52, and I found ones I liked and ones I didn't like, picking up and dropping them as they went, based on whether or not heroism counted or was rewarded (believe it or not, there are places that it was), or other factors. New 52 may not be perfect, but there is no way the pre-52 DCU was as good as everyone online says it is. If they were printing gold like I keep hearing, then why was it selling so poorly?

          More importantly, I don't want the old DCU back because I can still read it, whenever I want, by picking up collected editions, but at my own pace. New 52 was largely a good place to jump on as a new reader, though I also admit that wasn't universal. Some series (Batman, Green Lantern) got to continue on as if absolutely nothing had changed, while other series were just poorly conceived and didn't know where they belonged in the new continuity. DC should have taken more time to plan it out, and properly wrap up old stories, but they didn't and that's the world we live with. Jumping back to the old DCU means that suddenly, if anything is to make sense, I have to rush back to an old continuity I'm largely unfamiliar with, and that's just as threatening to the current readers DC picked up with the New 52 as the New 52 apparently was to the old DCU readers. They won't do that twice.

          Meanwhile, I still read DC over Marvel because while people accuse DC of making its heroes jerks, Marvel is still trying to push jerks as hero, and all the while telling me that its acceptable because they're more "realistic" and "relatable" (I don't mean to rant against Marvel here, and I apologize to its fans, but Marvel characters by and large don't excite me).

          If Convergence is a goodbye to old characters, that's fine, but given the alternate universe focus, I would have enjoyed a chance for some Multiversity-esque explorations of alternate worlds, minus Grant Morrison's fascinating but sometimes confusing overarching story and themes. Someday I'll get that Crime Syndicate story I want to read, where they aren't actually facing the Justice League.

          Anyway, that's where my mind went with this. Sorry if it became a bit of a digression, everyone.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: DC's Convergence

            Personally, I tried to get into the New52. I did. I collected several of their "wave 1" releases for almost a year and even a couple of their "wave 2" releases for a few issues, but they bastardized the characters I liked so well, so badly that I couldn't take it any more and dropped DC entirely. I have a pretty thick skin for this sort of thing, after all, I was reading DC when it was a multiverse and kept reading through the relaunch that followed Crisis on Infinite Earths, where they tried to compress the multiverse into a single continuity and I tried to keep reading after Flashpoint and the launch of the New 52, but most of it became such garbage.

            As for what's going on at Marvel, many, if not most fans hated Civil War and the events that came after, AvsX was particularly egregious, but, throughout all the badness, they didn't throw the baby out with the bath water. Not to say they never have. I remember the "split" of their comic universe that came with the first Onslaught storyline, when they too hired back a bunch of guys from the original Image comics only to have them produce utter crap. And they had to backtrack that, so understand, I know DC isn't alone in universe ruining reboots helmed by former Image guys, but they're particularly stubborn about their efforts to alienate huge portions of what used to be their fanbase.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: DC's Convergence

              Originally posted by Ares View Post
              So, if you were like me, you were hoping that Convergence might be a way to get the Pre-Flashpoint DCU back, possibly by incorporating some of the decent aspects of the Nu-52 as a compromise.

              Instead, it looks like this is going to be the final send-off to the Post-Crisis Universe.
              I on the other hand hold out hope. I see this as them testing the waters, seeing what the sales feedback is like before deciding that yes, people would rather have the pre flashpoint universe back. But even more so reading this its almost like that universe isn't gone yet, we've simply been reading about a different universe for the last 3 years & its going to be revealed that the crisis that is going to effect the entire multiverse is just building up steam, so Talos has been grabbing people from all realities. After all, if the pre-flashpoint characters exist who are also have direct analogues in the NU52, then the NU52 cannot be a merger of the old reality with the Wildstorm Universe, otherwise those characters would be absent: characters like Tim Drake, Stephanie Brown & Red Arrow.

              Originally posted by Ares View Post
              So basically they're saying "Hey, remember those old characters you like? The optimistic heroes and fun universe? Well, here they are, being attacked by the people from the event that got rid of them in the first place, before we go back to the dark universe with the decisions that drove most of you away to begin with."

              Or to paraphrase the sage Lewis Black:

              The guy that proposed the Nu-52 stands up in DC and says 'I GOT A REALLY BAD IDEA!!' and the Convergence guy stands up after him and says 'AND I CAN MAKE IT SHITTIER!!'
              HA! That's totally how I envision DC story meetings going since Flashpoint.

              Originally posted by kingk View Post
              New 52 may not be perfect, but there is no way the pre-52 DCU was as good as everyone online says it is.
              It was as good as people online are saying. Trust me in saying that whatever you are reading now there is a 90% chance there was a better version of it before Flashpoint.

              Originally posted by kingk View Post
              If they were printing gold like I keep hearing, then why was it selling so poorly?
              It wasn't selling poorly. The sales figures we have now reflect the pre 2011 sales figures we had, so if the current sales figures stop dropping now, they'll have normalised to pre flashpoint levels.... But they likely won't stop dropping now given how much they are dropping by. See a boost in sales is only any good long term if its sustainable & the NU52 wasn't. They spent 3 years throwing everything they had at the wall, every crazy idea, every topsy-turvy elseworld concept, while raping & pillaging their own IP's, destroying their brand & alienating their long time readers.... An it only took 3 years of this shock & awe writing, this attempt to resurrect the speculators market for readers to perform a mass exodus to the point that the sales are back to what they were & still dropping.

              On the other hand marvel sales were also down at the same time & when DC did its NU52 specifically to get ahead of Marvel, Marvel STILL kept its larger market share than DC, without a reboot... In fact marvel INCREASED its marketshare lead.

              Originally posted by kingk View Post
              New 52 was largely a good place to jump on as a new reader,
              It actually wasn't a good jumping on place for new readers. It was confused, convoluted & rushed, even the writers had no idea what was going on, what was still in continuity.

              Originally posted by kingk View Post
              Some series (Batman, Green Lantern) got to continue on as if absolutely nothing had changed,
              Actually no: They neutered beloved characters in both. Kyle Rayner went from a well developed character to a pale imitation, sleep walking through his own book with none of the depth that had come before, nor did its overarching story.

              Originally posted by kingk View Post
              Jumping back to the old DCU means that suddenly, if anything is to make sense, I have to rush back to an old continuity I'm largely unfamiliar with, and that's just as threatening to the current readers DC picked up with the New 52 as the New 52 apparently was to the old DCU readers.
              LOL this would only be true if the NU52 suddenly brought in a couple of thousand new committed readers who hadn't been reading the old continuity, which it did not.
              “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.”

              -Doctor Who

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: DC's Convergence

                Originally posted by Horsenhero View Post
                Personally, I tried to get into the New52. I did. I collected several of their "wave 1" releases for almost a year and even a couple of their "wave 2" releases for a few issues, but they bastardized the characters I liked so well, so badly that I couldn't take it any more and dropped DC entirely.
                Yep, me too. Justice League, Justice League International, Teen Titans, Superboy, Demon Knights, Blue Beetle & Static were all on my pull list. Out of that list the only one that was any good was Justice League International & only because it was entirely possible to read it as a Young Justice universe book, taking place after the events of Young Justice: Invasion. The UN is worried about potential future alien invasions & so builds its own Justice League in defense against that possibility.
                “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.”

                -Doctor Who

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: DC's Convergence

                  Originally posted by saint_matthew View Post
                  It actually wasn't a good jumping on place for new readers. It was confused, convoluted & rushed, even the writers had no idea what was going on, what was still in continuity.
                  The other points you make may have some validity, and in all honesty, since, again, I wasn't reading then, I can't argue against them. But I can argue this. Yes, this was a good jumping on place for new readers, at least a few, since I know several people who jumped on here, myself included. Was every title a winner? No. Still, I was able to start reading a number of series with the New 52, and to enjoy them without feeling confused.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: DC's Convergence

                    Originally posted by kingk View Post
                    The other points you make may have some validity, and in all honesty, since, again, I wasn't reading then, I can't argue against them. But I can argue this. Yes, this was a good jumping on place for new readers, at least a few, since I know several people who jumped on here, myself included. Was every title a winner? No. Still, I was able to start reading a number of series with the New 52, and to enjoy them without feeling confused.
                    That doesn't make it a good jumping on point, it simply makes it the point YOU jumped on.
                    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.”

                    -Doctor Who

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: DC's Convergence

                      Static was the worst- it was the DEBUT ISSUE, ie. the single issue where you need to introduce the fans to the characters and the concepts, and explain the necessary exposition... and instead we were dropped right in the middle of something without the slightest hint as to what was going on. Something like a half-dozen new villains and a FREAKING ROBOT SIDEKICK were all introduced in a single issue, with not an explanation for any of them. It was like we were supposed to just know who all of these people were ahead of time. It was no surprise that it was one of the first casualties of the Nu52.

                      The entire first year of the Nu52 basically featured the writers struggling with what to do- "do we want to try introducing this character? Or did some other writer have a plan for him?" "Is this the same as the old guy? I don't even know..." We had these great old characters re-introduced... who of course no longer had any of the backstory that was what made them cool in the FIRST place! Suddenly nobody had any history with each other, but we were supposed to just act like they did.

                      Then came the mass exodus of writers, complaining about obstructionist corporate heads & editors. Which of course is what guys who write shitty books ALWAYS SAY, but in this case, I'll believe it, if only for the sheer number of specific, repeated complaints.
                      Last edited by Jabroniville; 11-13-2014, 01:30 AM.
                      Jabroniville at Hotmail dot com
                      http://www.echoesofthemultiverse.com/index.php

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: DC's Convergence

                        Originally posted by Jabroniville View Post
                        Static was the worst- it was the DEBUT ISSUE, ie. the single issue where you need to introduce the fans to the characters and the concepts, and explain the necessary exposition... and instead we were dropped right in the middle of something without the slightest hint as to what was going on. Something like a half-dozen new villains and a FREAKING ROBOT SIDEKICK were all introduced in a single issue, with not an explanation for any of them. It was no surprise that it was one of the first casualties of the Nu52.
                        Yeah, I got it first as single issues & then sold the single issues & purchased in as a trade (made a profit on the deal too). It doesn't work at all as single issues, though it kinda works as a trade, but even when it works, it's barely passing the minimum requirements for "working as a story."

                        But what can you expect from a writer who has never written a comic in his life & had no knowledge of the character.

                        Demon Knights had a similar problem.... Instead of starting out with some establishing story it starts in the middle of a crisis event. Unlike Static I have no need for Demon Knights in trade, to complete part of my TPB collection (which is growing at an increasingly fast rate).

                        Originally posted by Jabroniville View Post
                        The entire first year of the Nu52 basically featured the writers struggling with what to do- "do we want to try introducing this character? Or did some other writer have a plan for him?" "Is this the same as the old guy? I don't even know..." We had these great old characters re-introduced... who of course no longer had any of the backstory that was what made them cool in the FIRST place! Suddenly nobody had any history with each other, but we were supposed to just act like they did.

                        Then came the mass exodus of writers, complaining about obstructionist corporate heads & editors. Which of course is what guys who write shitty books ALWAYS SAY, but in this case, I'll believe it, if only for the sheer number of specific, repeated complaints.
                        Yeah, a repeated claim does not become more true the more its repeated, but given what we know about how badly DC creators were being treated & the insight we have from so many individual writers writing about their experiences at the time leaves me in no doubt that much of the problems, if not all of the problems at DC at the moment are caused by the meddling of middle & upper management types who don't know their arse from their elbow when it comes to comics (an yes I include Didio in that assumption).
                        “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.”

                        -Doctor Who

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: DC's Convergence

                          Lookee here DC.

                          I know you've had your ups and downs.. i get it.. comic fans are a notoriously fickle bunch.. but we like what we like..

                          So you bring back The Ray.. and i wont call foul anymore.. K?
                          "Oh poop!" (inexact translation) Author Unknown, Pompeii circa 79 A.D.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: DC's Convergence

                            This isn't even close to what the readership they abandoned wanted. It's a terrible sales stunt.

                            When the readers finally have enough, that's when both DC and Marvel will have to face that the way they have been doing business since 1985 has done nothing but destroy the comics industry.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: DC's Convergence

                              Originally posted by Darrin Kelley View Post
                              This isn't even close to what the readership they abandoned wanted. It's a terrible sales stunt.
                              Or the very way they are going to give us exactly what we wanted, by bringing back the old continuity.... I choose to at this time see the glass as half full.
                              “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.”

                              -Doctor Who

                              Comment

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