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  • Gotham... thoughts?

    So I watched this last night.. and it was.. different.

    I'm not sure what kind of beast it will be.. but it won't be able to get by on easter eggs alone..

    and Robin Lord Taylor was just great as the Penguin.. almost the highlight of the show for now.. which would be great in its own right.. how to be a crime lord in Gotham..
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  • #2
    Re: Gotham... thoughts?

    I popped in-and-out of it, so really didn't get a great handle on it, but it seems ok.

    Only not really a "superhero" show, but the "before-hand" life of Commissioner Gordon before he had the title. If they are not careful, this could get tedious and boring REAL quickly and become just another "detective/police drama".

    I wonder if any superpowered villains or heroes will appear?

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    • #3
      Re: Gotham... thoughts?

      Originally posted by savijmuhdrox View Post
      So I watched this last night.. and it was.. different.
      Actually I'm going to disagree with you on this point, it was in no way different. It was a police procedural without the procedural, and where you don't care about the police. Gotham is "Law and Order: Shitty Lighting Division" & honestly that's about it.

      Its not a common man story, there are no interesting characters whose adventures I want to hear about & no interesting background plot.... An in all honesty I don't see this lasting & this is from someone who enjoys the heck out of both superhero comics and police procedurals & this product isn't either of these things while pretending to be both.

      In a universe where WB thinks that every adaptation of a DC property for the big or small screen needs to be turned into Batman, they've apparently decided the one franchise that should be Batman, Batman, should contain no Batman.

      This honestly would have been better had they just ripped off Gotham Central.
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      • #4
        Re: Gotham... thoughts?

        It has potential to be good, but I think the odds are in favor of it not lasting more than a season or two. They have enough stories to play with for a while with all the villians and minor characters around Gotham to play off of and showing the backstory of all of them too. If it turns into just another cop show, I do think it will last. I think it will really be the villains who have any chance of keeping the show interesting almost as more of a show centered around Gotham's darker characters. I don't see Bruce being more than a background character unless it lasts several seasons to see him get older and start training to eventually be Batman.

        The team that did Smallville, had originally pitched the idea with Batman's backstory and got shot down before they came back with Smallville. It sounds like someone with the network went "well Smallville had a good run, maybe we should go ahead with that Batman backstory idea after all."
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        • #5
          Re: Gotham... thoughts?

          I didn't think it was bad, but nothing about the show really grabbed me.

          Gordon and Bullock were both fine, but I found all the 'Muppet Babies' versions of Batman's rogues gallery to be off-putting. It's like the show runners saw the rapidly declining viewership on 'Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.', assumed it was due to the lack of Marvel characters cameoing, and decided to go the exact opposite direction. We obviously haven't seen the last of the Penguin, or Riddler, or Catwoman, but I wonder how they're going to keep shoehorning in Poison Ivy.

          At least the show looked good. I liked the sort of anachronistic appearance of everything. The mismatch of technology and fashion reminded me 'Batman: The Animated Series'. Or 'Archer'!
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          • #6
            Re: Gotham... thoughts?

            Originally posted by saint_matthew View Post
            Actually I'm going to disagree with you on this point, it was in no way different. It was a police procedural without the procedural, and where you don't care about the police. Gotham is "Law and Order: Shitty Lighting Division" & honestly that's about it.
            Precisely the reaction I expected you to have. That`s not meant as dig at all. And not to suggest you are predictable.

            And, I totally agree.

            Batman`s backstory (if you`re trying to go Smallville in terms of premise) doesn`t work. Batman`s backstory, after his parents are murdered is boring. That`s why there was interest in a retcon to create Superboy and then variants of a kid growing up with the ability to juggle tanks.

            Watching Bruce train as a martial artist is dull. Him learning to be a detective? Unless they throw mysteries for him to solve also dull. And if they go that route I don`t see credibility shining through.

            And I still don`t get why Gordon went to Wayne for permission. Or Pennyworth raisng his voice when Bruce was on the roof? WTF?

            Like other sentiment, I was more interested in Penguin. Jada Pinkett wasn't horrible in her role, although I have not figured out what it is yet...

            Nope, don`t see it lasting.
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            • #7
              Re: Gotham... thoughts?

              This will probably get three seasons, maybe more (once you get four, you tend to get more).

              I liked it, and think it has room to grow. To me, Donal Logue was a perfect choice to play Bullock. And I like that they made young Bruce kinda creepy. The whole perspicacious child thing gets overused in media, I feel, but if fits anyone, its the boy who will become the World's Greatest Detective.

              I also liked they made Alfred distinct, not as friendly or soft as Michael Caine's parental take on it. For one thing, it implies Alfred has to grow to accept his role as a parent, and it harkens back to Alfred possibly having a darker, military background.
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              • #8
                Re: Gotham... thoughts?

                I really don't see this lasting, because as Saint Matthew said, it's trying to be Batman without Batman, and the police elements aren't enough to hold it. But first the highlights: Oswald Cobblepot is fantastic, gruff Alfred was an interesting and different take, Bullock looks the part, and Gordon looks like he could make a great Gordon if he starts doing better.

                My problems start with the murder. It felt underwhelming. I know its been done a dozen times, and that its hard to come up with a new interpretation, and that Bruce isn't the focus of this show, but still. How about maybe we don't see it right away, but rather once Gordon is called to the scene we see him recreate the crime in his mind? To show he's a good detective? Then they realize who the bodies are and they find Bruce? Just an idea.

                After that, we get into the territory where we just have cameo appearances for everyone to no avail. Kyle suggested that they were trying to do the opposite of Agents of SHIELD, which suffered from no comic book villains by shoehorning them in everywhere, but the problem is the same: We can't see the interesting versions of these characters. Edward Nygma as lab tech is better than having a totally generic villain, but we still can't get Edward Nygma as Riddler.

                The dialogue was also really off-putting to me. Either everyone spoke in speeches, or they used really strange expressions that took me out of the scene to wonder exactly what it was they were saying. The former is problematic because everyone seems to already know how important and symbolic they and these events are (like when Gordon went to talk to Bruce Wayne), which annoys me because I hate when heroes are apparently pre-destined instead of making a choice themselves. On a meta-level, of course Bruce is pre-destined to become Batman, unless the show tries to throw us for a really radical spanner but they won't, but the job of the show is to make us believe it as he does it, rather than just rely on our goodwill that it will happen.

                I also have problems with the pacing of the plot and all the threads thrown up in the air. I just don't see this show getting enough seasons to have Bruce grow or any of the villains reaching a point where they are interesting and worth seeing. I suppose the one thing the show might do is have them put on costumes before Bruce, and go the route of "Batman is needed to stop the supervillains" instead of "Batman triggers the supervillains," but I hope they don't.

                I'm realizing what might be an interesting approach, but that they probably aren't planning on doing, is having each season be self-contained and letting several years pass in-between. First season is Gordon's first months/year in Gotham, and covers the Wayne murder. Next season could be 2-3 years later, and address some different issue. Then another 2-3 year jumps between seasons (allowing Gordon to grow a stash and Bruce to be old enough to be interesting), and we can hit Batman. They won't do that though.

                All that being said, I thought pretty poorly of Agents of SHIELD and Arrow when they started, and while I still am at best ambivalent about the former, the latter has become one of my favorite shows, so I'll give Gotham more time before I jump ship entirely. But I'm really more excited for Flash.

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                • #9
                  Re: Gotham... thoughts?

                  Originally posted by Bladewind View Post
                  Batman`s backstory (if you`re trying to go Smallville in terms of premise) doesn`t work. Batman`s backstory, after his parents are murdered is boring. That`s why there was interest in a retcon to create Superboy and then variants of a kid growing up with the ability to juggle tanks.

                  Watching Bruce train as a martial artist is dull. Him learning to be a detective? Unless they throw mysteries for him to solve also dull. And if they go that route I don`t see credibility shining through.
                  Conversely, I think the idea of Bruce Wayne training to be Batman actually holds a lot of promise. Watching Bruce wander the world, coming across different teachers in different locations, seeing the mistakes he made along the way, developing his moral code, that I think has a lot of promise, and would actually work for setting up other characters in the DCU. Plus the notion of Bruce trying to do all this while not letting it slip what he's up to, necessitating false identities, secret trips, etc. There was some decent stuff in an old 'Untold Tales of Batman' story where we see Bruce initially want to get into law enforcement, but decided not to when the conflicts between what is right and what is legal turned him towards vigilantism.

                  A 'young Bruce Wayne' series always made more sense to me than a 'young Clark Kent' series, unless said series decided to involve the Legion of Superheroes traveling to the past to each take turns secretly mentoring Clark and preparing him for his role as Superman. Because Clark's life before he put the costume on was boring. He was the epitome of the average guy and he did everything to hide his powers. It's why Smallville had to change so much of the mythos and throw in all of these Kryptonite monsters and then introduce the Justice League and other heroes and villains before he put on his costume, because otherwise it would have just been Clark finishing highschool, doing some soul searching, and then getting into journalism before becoming a superhero.

                  Bruce Wayne has close to a decade of him traveling the world training to be the greatest crime fighter in history, mastering a multitude of disciplines, making contacts, building his code of conduct, possibly while tracking down the man that killed his parents, so on and so forth. There's a lot of cool potential there.

                  Sadly, it doesn't sound like Gotham is the series for it, as a 'Gotham City Before Batman' only really works if you've got a solid cast and really make it just about the cops and how things in the city are getting worse, and then show Batman as this dark, unknown factor that initially freaks the police out too. Show us Batman from the cops perspective rather than from Bruce Wayne's perspective.
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                  • #10
                    Re: Gotham... thoughts?

                    Originally posted by kingk View Post
                    But I'm really more excited for Flash.

                    Yep.
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                    • #11
                      Re: Gotham... thoughts?

                      My biggest problem with the show is the pacing. I realize there's a lot of ground already covered in the Bat-mythos and the showrunners are just figuring out exactly what the show is going to be, but it was just too busy. There was no time for any sort of background on anything or anyone and personally, I would've preferred they left the Wayne's murders out of it. This is primarily Jim Gordon's story. Jim Gordon's story doesn't begin with the Wayne murders. Gotham's story doesn't begin with the Wayne murders.

                      That being said, the best scene in the show (which followed one of the worst) was the scene with Carmine Falcone. At least the Falcone character shows some spark. He was both classy and menacing, exactly how a fictional crimelord should be.

                      Overall, unless the plots get richer and they disregard some of the meaningless cameos for the sake of some more depth in the "plot du jour", I have fairly low expectations for the shows' survival.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Gotham... thoughts?

                        OMG, that sucked rotten eggs harrrd. Such lazy writing, with zero character development; there's not one character I give a rat's @$$ about.

                        I wouldn't wish anyone to be out of work, but I won't be watching the show.
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                        • #13
                          Re: Gotham... thoughts?

                          Originally posted by Ares View Post
                          Conversely, I think the idea of Bruce Wayne training to be Batman actually holds a lot of promise. Watching Bruce wander the world, coming across different teachers in different locations, seeing the mistakes he made along the way, developing his moral code, that I think has a lot of promise, and would actually work for setting up other characters in the DCU. Plus the notion of Bruce trying to do all this while not letting it slip what he's up to, necessitating false identities, secret trips, etc. There was some decent stuff in an old 'Untold Tales of Batman' story where we see Bruce initially want to get into law enforcement, but decided not to when the conflicts between what is right and what is legal turned him towards vigilantism.

                          A 'young Bruce Wayne' series always made more sense to me than a 'young Clark Kent' series, unless said series decided to involve the Legion of Superheroes traveling to the past to each take turns secretly mentoring Clark and preparing him for his role as Superman. Because Clark's life before he put the costume on was boring. He was the epitome of the average guy and he did everything to hide his powers. It's why Smallville had to change so much of the mythos and throw in all of these Kryptonite monsters and then introduce the Justice League and other heroes and villains before he put on his costume, because otherwise it would have just been Clark finishing highschool, doing some soul searching, and then getting into journalism before becoming a superhero.

                          Bruce Wayne has close to a decade of him traveling the world training to be the greatest crime fighter in history, mastering a multitude of disciplines, making contacts, building his code of conduct, possibly while tracking down the man that killed his parents, so on and so forth. There's a lot of cool potential there.

                          Sadly, it doesn't sound like Gotham is the series for it, as a 'Gotham City Before Batman' only really works if you've got a solid cast and really make it just about the cops and how things in the city are getting worse, and then show Batman as this dark, unknown factor that initially freaks the police out too. Show us Batman from the cops perspective rather than from Bruce Wayne's perspective.
                          Absolutely my sentiments. A television show following the adventures of a boy trying to turn himself into a hero-into BATMAN? That would be interesting-especially if the program acknowledged (however obliquely) the elder JSA heroes-with young Bruce Wayne seeking them out, alternately inspired and discouraged by them (depending on the circumstances); Bruce going on quests, being mentored by Alfred, joining the circus and learning acrobatic skills from the Flying Graysons, encountering a mysterious, spit-curled super-strong boy who keeps beating him to the punch (and vowing to someday best him), and the like..the biggest issue would be there couldn't actually be much globe-trotting on a television budget.

                          All my best.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Gotham... thoughts?

                            Originally posted by Ares View Post
                            Conversely, I think the idea of Bruce Wayne training to be Batman actually holds a lot of promise. Watching Bruce wander the world, coming across different teachers in different locations, seeing the mistakes he made along the way, developing his moral code, that I think has a lot of promise, and would actually work for setting up other characters in the DCU. Plus the notion of Bruce trying to do all this while not letting it slip what he's up to, necessitating false identities, secret trips, etc. There was some decent stuff in an old 'Untold Tales of Batman' story where we see Bruce initially want to get into law enforcement, but decided not to when the conflicts between what is right and what is legal turned him towards vigilantism.

                            A 'young Bruce Wayne' series always made more sense to me than a 'young Clark Kent' series, unless said series decided to involve the Legion of Superheroes traveling to the past to each take turns secretly mentoring Clark and preparing him for his role as Superman. Because Clark's life before he put the costume on was boring. He was the epitome of the average guy and he did everything to hide his powers. It's why Smallville had to change so much of the mythos and throw in all of these Kryptonite monsters and then introduce the Justice League and other heroes and villains before he put on his costume, because otherwise it would have just been Clark finishing highschool, doing some soul searching, and then getting into journalism before becoming a superhero.

                            Bruce Wayne has close to a decade of him traveling the world training to be the greatest crime fighter in history, mastering a multitude of disciplines, making contacts, building his code of conduct, possibly while tracking down the man that killed his parents, so on and so forth. There's a lot of cool potential there.

                            Sadly, it doesn't sound like Gotham is the series for it, as a 'Gotham City Before Batman' only really works if you've got a solid cast and really make it just about the cops and how things in the city are getting worse, and then show Batman as this dark, unknown factor that initially freaks the police out too. Show us Batman from the cops perspective rather than from Bruce Wayne's perspective.
                            Smallville (to me) was more of an alternate Superman as Superboy, and ultimately just another take on what might have been. The comics of Superboy (original ones that is) are another, as is he was normal, he hid his powers and John Kent told him to keep it a secret and died for no good reason because of it...

                            Funny. I think Clark learning about his powers and coping is more interesting than Bruce accumulating the skills... even if I do see and agree with the points you made about Smallville to one extent or another. It's Clark trying too be normal that I find fun. I never really got the notion for Bats or Supes that their Rogues show up after they start... What? There were no supervillains around until superheroes showed up?
                            Which is why I do like the concept of Gotham... let's see the Rogues develop and be active before the Bat...

                            But unless you want to modernize Kung Fu the Legend Continues I just don't get how Bruce training can be more interesting to watch than paint peel... Okay, I'm exaggerating greatly. But still, I do prefer a scene in an elseworlds series (Byrne's Generations) where we see Wayne (before Bats) running through a field and referencing in a thought bubble that he hoped plying football (paraphrasing heavily) was going to pay off...
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                            • #15
                              Re: Gotham... thoughts?

                              Actually... watching it... I'm getting the vibe this was supposed to be Gotham Central, and then got rewritten and scenes added to make it a prequel.

                              We've got Montoya and Allen, who shouldn't be contemporaries of Gordon, an older Bullock, implications that Montoya and Gordon's fiancee were involved at some point. All of it just screams the lead of this wasn't supposed to be Gordon to me. I'm also pretty sure one of the leads in Gotham Central was Ex-military and looks a lot like Gordon does here.

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