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Beginner Characters (i.e. Fixing the book's Character Archetypes) - Community Effort?

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  • Re: Beginner Characters (i.e. Fixing the book's Character Archetypes) - Community Effort?

    When you think of comic book Gadgeteers, who are the iconic characters?
    [url]http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/211267/Do-Not-Approach[/url]

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    • Re: Beginner Characters (i.e. Fixing the book's Character Archetypes) - Community Effort?

      Originally posted by pawsplay View Post
      When you think of comic book Gadgeteers, who are the iconic characters?
      Reed Richards and Braniac 5.

      Batman and Tony Stark have a little gadgeteer in them.
      [HR][/HR][URL="http://roninarmy.com/threads/60-Kenseido-s-Menagerie"]Kenseido's Menagerie of Characters[/URL]

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      • Re: Beginner Characters (i.e. Fixing the book's Character Archetypes) - Community Effort?

        I think X-men's Forge as the iconic gadgeteer.

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        • Re: Beginner Characters (i.e. Fixing the book's Character Archetypes) - Community Effort?

          I don't see the Gadgeteer as replicating Richards or Brainiac-5. Forge seems like a more plausible template.
          [url]http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/211267/Do-Not-Approach[/url]

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          • Re: Beginner Characters (i.e. Fixing the book's Character Archetypes) - Community Effort?

            Originally posted by JDRook View Post
            Beginner Gadgeteer Test Model - PL 10

            Strength 2, Stamina 4, Agility 0, Dexterity 2, Fighting 4, Intellect 4, Awareness 4, Presence 0

            Advantages
            Assessment, Close Attack 4, Defensive Roll 2, Eidetic Memory, Equipment 1, Improved Initiative, Improvised Tools, Inventor, Skill Mastery: Technology

            Skills
            Insight 2 (+6/+11 vs Tech), Investigation 2 (+6), Perception 2 (+6/+11 vs Tech), Ranged Combat: Gimmick Guns 6 (+8), Technology 11 (+15), Vehicles 3 (+5)

            Powers

            Extensible Wing Frames (Removable)
            . . Flight 4 (Speed: 30 miles/hour, 500 feet/round; Extras: Stacks with: Hover Boots: Flight 2+4; Flaws: Wings)
            . . Protection 6 (+6 Toughness; Extras: Impervious)
            . . Enhanced Trait 4 (Traits: Fortitude +4 (+8))
            . AE:Protective Outift (Wings Collapsed) (Removable)
            . . . Protection 8 (+8 Toughness; Extras: Impervious)
            . . . Enhanced Trait 4 (Traits: Fortitude +4 (+8))

            Gimmick Guns (Easily Removable)
            . . Twin Pistols: Damage 8 (DC 23; Extras: Accurate 2: +4, Increased Range: ranged, Split: 2 targets, Variable Descriptor: close group - Broad, but must change in worskhop or jury-rig)
            . . AE:Combo Cannon: Damage 14 (DC 29; Extras: Increased Range: ranged, Penetrating 6, Variable Descriptor: close group - Broad, but must change in worskhop or jury-rig; Flaws: Inaccurate: -2, Unreliable (5 uses))

            Goggles: Senses 4 (Removable, Communication Link: Choose Medium, Low-light Vision, Ultravision, Extended Vision 1 (-1/100'))

            Hardening Foam Projector (Removable)
            . . Rapid Cover Deployment: Create 7 (Volume: 125 cft., DC 17; Extras: Impervious; Flaws: Diminished Range 2, Permanent)
            . . AE:Foam Grenade: Cumulative Cloud Area Affliction 7 (1st degree: Hindered and Vulnerable, 2nd degree: Defenseless and Immobilized, Resisted by: Dodge, overcome by Damage or Sleight of Hand, DC 17; Extras: Cloud Area: 15 feet radius sphere, DC 17, Cumulative, Extra Condition, Increased Range: ranged; Flaws: Diminished Range 2, Limited Degree, Unreliable (5 uses))

            Hover Boots: Flight 2+4 (Removable, [Stacking ranks: +4], Speed: 120 miles/hour, 1800 feet/round)
            . . AE:Jet Kick: Strength-based Damage 3 (DC 20)

            Mechanical Acumem
            . . Evaluation: Enhanced Trait 6 (Traits: Insight +5 (+9), Perception +5 (+9), Advantages: Assessment; Flaws: Limited: Tech)
            . . Find Design Flaw: Strength-based Damage 4 (DC 21; Flaws: Limited: Tech Note: adds to close Damage vs Tech as well as Disarms)

            Super Multitool: Variable 1 (Easily Removable; Extras: Action: move, Increased Duration: continuous, Notes: Hand Weapons and Tools)
            Sample Power Settings
            Cutting Torch (Powers: Cutting Torch)
            . . . . . . Melt: Weaken 2 (Linked; Affects: Toughness, Resisted by: Fortitude, DC 12; Extras: Affects Objects Only)
            . . . . . . Torch flame: Damage 2 (Linked; DC 17; Extras: Precise)
            Hand Weapon (Powers: Axe)
            . . . . . . Strength-based Damage 3 (slashing, DC 20; Extras: Breaking, Dangerous)
            Tools (Powers: Crowbar)
            . . . . . . Prybar: Enhanced Strength 3 (+3 STR; Flaws: Limited: To prying open)
            . . . . . . Use as Club: Strength-based Damage 2 (DC 19)

            Equipment
            Subway Station - Tou 8, Size Medium Features: Concealed 1, Power System, Workshop.

            Offense
            Initiative +4
            Combo Cannon: Damage 14, +6 (DC 29)
            Find Design Flaw: Strength-based Damage 4, +8 (DC 21)
            Foam Grenade: Cumulative Cloud Area Affliction 7 (DC Fort/Will 17)
            Grab, +8 (DC Spec 12)
            Jet Kick: Strength-based Damage 3, +8 (DC 20)
            Melt: Weaken 2, +8 (DC Fort 12)
            Strength-based Damage 3, +8 (DC 20)
            Throw, +2 (DC 17)
            Torch flame: Damage 2, +8 (DC 17)
            Twin Pistols: Damage 8, +12 (DC 23)
            Unarmed, +8 (DC 17)
            Use as Club: Strength-based Damage 2, +8 (DC 19)

            Defense
            Dodge 6, Parry 6, Fortitude 8/4, Toughness 12/10, Will 8

            Power Points
            Abilities 40 + Powers 63 + Advantages 12 + Skills 13 (26 ranks) + Defenses 12 = 140

            So I tried splitting up the Gadgets into a few different ones with a couple modes each. The Flight Suit/Armor is alomst like a very simplified Battlesuit that's slightly more vulnerable in flight. Note that fouling the wings doesn't make the Gadgeteer fall since Flight is stacked with the Boots, but it does slow them down.

            The Gimmick Guns are modular, so the two pistols can combine into one big gun with limited shots. If the cannon uses all of its ammo, the guns stop working, too. I kept the Variable Descriptor but it's harder to change them mid-combat.

            The Hardening Foam grew from the fact I don't actually like Create or Move Object for a Gadgeteer, but I thought a different descritor might work. I started with the foam grenade and realized that could be a reasonable and fun Create as well. Again, limited Grenade shots drains the foam.

            The Boots now stack Flight with the wings, as mentioned above, and can give a surprise damage bonus for close combat. The "Kick" could also be consider a powered slam of sorts, but not necessarily a self-damaging Slam Attack.

            Mechanical Acumen covers the Favored Foe effects I mentioned before and also includes another close Damage bonus, this one limited to tech. Stacking both the Jet Kick and the tech bonus gives a potential Damage 9, although still comfortably below PL.

            The Super Multitool is identical to Squirrely's but is also Easily Removable. I also added a few sample configurations to illustrate the power.

            The Subway Station HQ I just found as an option in Hero Lab. Basically a 5p Concealed Workshop, which is the least a PC like this needs, but even that simple seems appropriate.

            While the guns are a solid PL10 offense, everything else is below PL, partly to save points but also partly intentionally. This is not a front-line fighter: their best attack is Ranged, they have good mobility and recon capability, and decent defenses that can also protect others, but also some surprise and capture attacks for support. And of course, a lot of utility.

            There's certainly room for improvement, even beyond the 10p leftover, but this feels better than being dependent on one big Mega-Gadget.
            This doesn't really seem very beginner friendly which these builds are supposed to be, easy to use and understand for those with little to no idea how to play or experience with the system.

            The build has effects that stack, from devices inherent powers and abilities or by separate powers with differing flaws. The Hand Weapon option from the variable effects even has some extras from Gadgets guide which isn't included by default with Hero Lab or the SRD and use names that aren't exactly very helpful in explaining what they do.

            He is also bellow caps on a lot of things, though at least isn't that far bellow and has a couple attacks that reach caps though only one of which is really reliable.

            How about rather than spreading out the gadgets to various completely different devices they're instead made into a sort of utility belt? A point trade off of normal Removable but a complication that the individual parts can be treated more like easily removable with parts of the array being disarmable?

            As for iconic Gadgeteers I tend to think more along the lines of Gear from Static Shock, Numbah 2 from KND, mechanic characters from adventure cartoons, and the turtle from the Sly Cooper series.
            [SIZE=2][FONT=comic sans ms][I][URL="https://roninarmy.com/threads/7721-WAIFU-WARZ-Squirrelly-s-Anime-and-Animation-Builds"]I Build Waifus and Waifu Accessories![/URL][/I][/FONT][/SIZE]

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            • Re: Beginner Characters (i.e. Fixing the book's Character Archetypes) - Community Effort?

              I feel like most iconic gadgeteers had a specific invention for which they were known, maybe two, plus their invention abilities. I think of Tomb Thumb, the original Atom, Peter Parker (kind of), the Sandman, Giant-Man, a lot of those Golden Age guys with goofy weapons. Then you have more omni-inventor types like Forge, Gizmo (the villain), and so forth.
              [url]http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/211267/Do-Not-Approach[/url]

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              • Re: Beginner Characters (i.e. Fixing the book's Character Archetypes) - Community Effort?

                Originally posted by pawsplay View Post
                I feel like most iconic gadgeteers had a specific invention for which they were known, maybe two, plus their invention abilities. I think of Tomb Thumb, the original Atom, Peter Parker (kind of), the Sandman, Giant-Man, a lot of those Golden Age guys with goofy weapons. Then you have more omni-inventor types like Forge, Gizmo (the villain), and so forth.
                I went with Forge because, to me, a gadgeteer should be able to A-Team or MacGyver their way out of a locked barn. B.A. Baracus is a gadgeteer.

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                • Re: Beginner Characters (i.e. Fixing the book's Character Archetypes) - Community Effort?

                  Originally posted by Squirrelly-sama
                  Int 4 actually has a 50/50 chance of succeeding a DC15 roll due to a 50% chance of rolling an 11 or higher and just needing to meet the DC being enough to pass. Since skill mastery isn't on any expertise he can't just routine roll it for it anyway. There's also Eidetic memory already giving a +5 to memory checks which may or may not relate to certain types of expertise checks.
                  Ummm, Expertise checks are typically made out of action time, and thus eligible for taking 10 without skill mastery. And don't forget that Eidetic Memory also allows for making ANY Expertise check UNTRAINED (at least for answering questions & providing information). Combined with a high base INT, this will turn the hero into a walking encyclopedia. Therefore my suggestion of INT 5, for hitting DC 15 with taking 10.


                  Originally posted by JDRook
                  Variable Descriptor: close group - Broad, but must change in worskhop or jury-rig
                  Makes little sense. I'd simply settle for VD 1 (elemental damage; switch between fire, lightning, frost etc at will), and then use power stunt or jury rig* for the more exotic stuff.
                  *an exotic alternate damage descriptor should be a 1p-modification (1 round; DC 16)

                  Extensible Wing Frames (Removable)
                  . . Flight 4 (Speed: 30 miles/hour, 500 feet/round; Extras: Stacks with: Hover Boots: Flight 2+4; Flaws: Wings)
                  . . Protection 6 (+6 Toughness; Extras: Impervious)
                  . . Enhanced Trait 4 (Traits: Fortitude +4 (+8))
                  . AE:Protective Outift (Wings Collapsed) (Removable)
                  . . . Protection 8 (+8 Toughness; Extras: Impervious)
                  . . . Enhanced Trait 4 (Traits: Fortitude +4 (+8))
                  Cool idea!

                  Find Design Flaw: Strength-based Damage 4 (DC 21; Flaws: Limited: Tech Note: adds to close Damage vs Tech as well as Disarms)
                  Alternate Solution: Perception Range Weaken Toughness 8 (Fort save; Affects only Objects, Check Required 4 [technology], Limited to tech, Limited to vs. own attacks, Quirk 2 [30' range])


                  Examples of gadgeteers in the media?
                  Megamind
                  Syndrome (The Incredibles)
                  Gizmo (Teen Titans)
                  https://roninarmy.com/forum/atomic-think-tank/roll-call/7149-bothrops-pit#post7149

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                  • Re: Beginner Characters (i.e. Fixing the book's Character Archetypes) - Community Effort?

                    Originally posted by Bothrops View Post
                    Ummm, Expertise checks are typically made out of action time, and thus eligible for taking 10 without skill mastery. And don't forget that Eidetic Memory also allows for making ANY Expertise check UNTRAINED (at least for answering questions & providing information). Combined with a high base INT, this will turn the hero into a walking encyclopedia. Therefore my suggestion of INT 5, for hitting DC 15 with taking 10.



                    Makes little sense. I'd simply settle for VD 1 (elemental damage; switch between fire, lightning, frost etc at will), and then use power stunt or jury rig* for the more exotic stuff.
                    *an exotic alternate damage descriptor should be a 1p-modification (1 round; DC 16)


                    Cool idea!


                    Alternate Solution: Perception Range Weaken Toughness 8 (Fort save; Affects only Objects, Check Required 4 [technology], Limited to tech, Limited to vs. own attacks, Quirk 2 [30' range])


                    Examples of gadgeteers in the media?
                    Megamind
                    Syndrome (The Incredibles)
                    Gizmo (Teen Titans)
                    A couple things: Eidetic memory doesn't give you routine rolls
                    Originally posted by SRD
                    EIDETIC MEMORY (GENERAL)

                    You have perfect recall of everything you’ve experienced. You have a +5 circumstance bonus on checks to remember things, including resistance checks against effects that alter or erase memories. You can also make Expertise skill checks to answer questions and provide information as if you were trained, meaning you can answer questions involving difficult or obscure knowledge even without ranks in the skill, due to the sheer amount of trivia you have picked up.
                    It just gives you +5 and the ability to use expertise checks you don't explicitly have for checks that involve just recalling the information.
                    The +5 means the Gadgeteer will probably pass most normal and routine checks easily, an HP means hitting a mimimum DC20 up to DC30 when he needs to reroll. He hits the minimum rank to succeed the check on a reroll if he really needs to pass.

                    The design fall thing I'd figured would be an Affliction that affects machines. One is Dazed, Stunned, Paralyzed and an alt for Impaired, Disabled, Incapacitated. You don't make it easier to damage so much as weaken it's ability to function.
                    [SIZE=2][FONT=comic sans ms][I][URL="https://roninarmy.com/threads/7721-WAIFU-WARZ-Squirrelly-s-Anime-and-Animation-Builds"]I Build Waifus and Waifu Accessories![/URL][/I][/FONT][/SIZE]

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                    • Re: Beginner Characters (i.e. Fixing the book's Character Archetypes) - Community Effort?

                      Originally posted by Squirrelly-sama View Post
                      A couple things: Eidetic memory doesn't give you routine rolls


                      It just gives you +5 and the ability to use expertise checks you don't explicitly have for checks that involve just recalling the information.
                      The +5 means the Gadgeteer will probably pass most normal and routine checks easily, an HP means hitting a mimimum DC20 up to DC30 when he needs to reroll. He hits the minimum rank to succeed the check on a reroll if he really needs to pass.

                      The design fall thing I'd figured would be an Affliction that affects machines. One is Dazed, Stunned, Paralyzed and an alt for Impaired, Disabled, Incapacitated. You don't make it easier to damage so much as weaken it's ability to function.
                      I never said that Eidetic Memory gives you routine checks. You can always take 10 on skill checks when not in a combat/challenge/action situation (Skill Mastery allows you to ignore this limitation). My point was that Expertise skills are rarely used under such circumstances.

                      On the issue of JDRook's "Find Design Flaw": I read that this proposed power's intent is making machines (or devices/vehicles/robots etc) easier to destroy, not interfering with their functions. My idea was just another solution for precisely this.
                      That said, an even more fitting power for a "techie" is one that takes control of machines - best done with an affliction, such as
                      Control Tech: Perception Range Cumulative Affliction (resisted & overcome by Will or Technology check; Controlled; Affects only objects, Limited Degree 1 [3rd only], Limited to machines, Mental Link)
                      https://roninarmy.com/forum/atomic-think-tank/roll-call/7149-bothrops-pit#post7149

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                      • Hey, glad to see this thread resurrected itself while I was not paying attention to the (mostly down) forums for a couple weeks.

                        I'll weigh in with some thoughts about the Gadgeteer in more depth when I don't have a bunch of D&D prep I should be doing. But one thought now:

                        We all know the Battlesuit archetype could have been a sub-archetype of the Gadgeteer. But given that we're making them separate, what should be the essential difference between the two?

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                        • The Gadgeteer is the guy who builds a battle suit (in addition or in lieu of other smaller gadgets). There wearer of a battle suit is under no obligation to be a builder of gadgets. Iron Man vs War Machine. Tony built both suits. Rhodes is a "battle suit" hero. Stark is both. (Although I still say Forge is prototype for gadgeteer).

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                          • The Gadgeteer is the guy who builds a battle suit (in addition or in lieu of other smaller gadgets). There wearer of a battle suit is under no obligation to be a builder of gadgets. Iron Man vs War Machine. Tony built both suits. Rhodes is a "battle suit" hero. Stark is both. (Although I still say Forge is prototype for gadgeteer).

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                            • Okay, so I rebuilt a bunch of the Archetypes. I would post them here but trying to post builds on this site seems to bug out like crazy so I'll just link to where the builds are posted.
                              The Battle Suit
                              The Construct
                              The Crime Fighter
                              The Energy Controller
                              The Gadgeteer
                              The Martial Artist
                              The Mimic

                              More than just making a full build I decided to give them options to choose from for various subtypes they can take as well as flesh out some complications, notes explaining the concept of the archetype, as well as a simple how to build and play for each.
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