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[Lara's Treasure] Ridley, Mother Brain, Kraid, Metroid, Midoriya, OC: Dusk, the Legendary Cowgirl

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  • #61
    Re: Lara's Treasures: Spider-Gwen!

    All good suggestions. I've considered using Targeted Areas from UP, because frankly I really like that rule. I've never been 100% happy with the basic area attacks work, at least for all things area-based. It might work out well, along with some setting-specific thing about trick shots or the like not destroying anything but the specified area. Deflected attacks should have their area reduced as well, I think. Maybe if I use targeted areas, they only detonate up to their full area when they hit the intended target, and much less if blocked, avoided, or deflected. So if Frieza targets the planet directly, he'll get the full blast radius, but if Trunks blocks it, or Frieza targets Trunks instead, the area is greatly reduced. Frieza could attack the planet directly to make it much harder for Trunks to dodge the blast, but he'll also be caught up in the area.

    I'm also going to come up with setting-specific (well, applicable to any setting, really) rules about superspeed and invisibility, so I'll be posting more ideas on it. In the meantime, feel free to share any more thoughts you have.
    Last edited by Lara Croft; 14th October 2016, 04:58 PM.

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    • #62
      Re: Lara's Treasures: Spider-Gwen!

      Originally posted by Lara Croft View Post
      All good suggestions. I've considered using Targeted Areas from UP, because frankly I really like that rule. I've never been 100% happy with the basic area attacks work, at least for all things area-based. It might work out well, along with some setting-specific thing about trick shots or the like not destroying anything but the specified area. Deflected attacks should have their area reduced as well, I think.

      I'm also going to come up with setting-specific (well, applicable to any setting, really) rules about superspeed and invisibility, so I'll be posting more ideas on it. In the meantime, feel free to share any more thoughts you have.
      Depending on how the flying speeds end up squaring off with other stat numbers, things like vanishing to reappear behind the opponent might just be a Feint done with the Agile Feint advantage
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      • #63
        Re: Lara's Treasures: Spider-Gwen!

        Originally posted by danelsan View Post
        Depending on how the flying speeds end up squaring off with other stat numbers, things like vanishing to reappear behind the opponent might just be a Feint done with the Agile Feint advantage
        Or possibly a bonus to attacks/penalty to defenses based on how much faster a fighter is than their opponent. I actually considered giving them, among other things, Enhanced Skill: Close Combat (Unarmed) linked to movement powers, with a Flaw that only so much of it applies based on how much faster you are than your opponent. So against fighters of relatively even speed and skill, their (admittedly high) normal Unarmed attack bonuses are what you use. If one such fighter went up against a normal person, their attack bonus would effectively skyrocket, because the other person cannot see or react to the fighter's movements. Frieza and Goku are attacking one another with +20-ish attack bonuses, say, but Frieza going all-out attacking a normal guy might jump up to +30 or higher. He doesn't normally have such an absurdly high attack bonus, but that guy has zero ability to see or react to his attacks. Hell, even an incredibly skilled comic book human martial artist like Batman wouldn't be able to see Frieza move, so his defense and attacks should suffer as a result.

        I might even add a similar defense bonus limited in the same way. What do you think?

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        • #64
          Re: Lara's Treasures: Spider-Gwen!

          Originally posted by Lara Croft View Post
          Or possibly a bonus to attacks/penalty to defenses based on how much faster a fighter is than their opponent. I actually considered giving them, among other things, Enhanced Skill: Close Combat (Unarmed) linked to movement powers, with a Flaw that only so much of it applies based on how much faster you are than your opponent. So against fighters of relatively even speed and skill, their (admittedly high) normal Unarmed attack bonuses are what you use. If one such fighter went up against a normal person, their attack bonus would effectively skyrocket, because the other person cannot see or react to the fighter's movements. Frieza and Goku are attacking one another with +20-ish attack bonuses, say, but Frieza going all-out attacking a normal guy might jump up to +30 or higher. He doesn't normally have such an absurdly high attack bonus, but that guy has zero ability to see or react to his attacks. Hell, even an incredibly skilled comic book human martial artist like Batman wouldn't be able to see Frieza move, so his defense and attacks should suffer as a result.

          I might even add a similar defense bonus limited in the same way. What do you think?
          This works for the general "absurd differences in speed makes it hard/impossible for you to avoid me, while I can easily escape from anything you try against me". I'd probably make it a general setting rule instead of giving Limited Enhanced Traits to each individual character*. Agile Feint is more for when fighters of approximately equal level use that vanishing move to get behind opponents (or above them).

          *Though this might tie into how you are going to be doing with PLs during the game, and what limits you are gonna put into movement powers. Like, if high Movement is gonna break PL limitations with those bonuses, they should be more expensive and/or have some PL-related limit themselves.
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          • #65
            Re: Lara's Treasures: Spider-Gwen!

            Originally posted by danelsan View Post
            This works for the general "absurd differences in speed makes it hard/impossible for you to avoid me, while I can easily escape from anything you try against me". I'd probably make it a general setting rule instead of giving Limited Enhanced Traits to each individual character*. Agile Feint is more for when fighters of approximately equal level use that vanishing move to get behind opponents (or above them).

            *Though this might tie into how you are going to be doing with PLs during the game, and what limits you are gonna put into movement powers. Like, if high Movement is gonna break PL limitations with those bonuses, they should be more expensive and/or have some PL-related limit themselves.
            I don't use PLs. Check out my builds in this thread, including Spider-Gwen just above. PLs are useful to a degree, but I figure, the game requires GM oversight anyway. I don't need them, I don't like how they force certain things, and I greatly prefer how the game works without them. So that's not an issue.

            So maybe 2x the difference in Speed ranks as a bonus or penalty? Straight difference between ranks won't be significant enough, I feel. If someone is 3 ranks of movement above you, that's not that big of a difference in terms of rank value, but the measurements and meanings involved are huge.

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            • #66
              Re: Lara's Treasures: Spider-Gwen!

              For area attack issues as mentioned above, what about a linked Damage + Damage? Normally you're not supposed to be able to do this, but look at it not like stacking up Damage effects, and more cutting the total Damage effect in half or so, and making one part of it purely Area. So, for example, Frieza's Supernova is, say, +45. What if we make it a +20 damage effect, with a linked +25 Area Damage that hits everything but the initial target in range. Except that the initial target should probably take increased damage somehow if they take the brunt of it. Hm. I'm not sure that this solution is quite what I'm after, but it may be on the right track. Big energy blasts in the show that are defended still often damage the target in their explosion, but not as badly as they would otherwise, and they don't wipe out the whole planet.

              I'm also going to have to figure out rules for Beam Struggles, but I may need to consult Mecha & Manga 2E for that.

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              • #67
                Re: Lara's Treasures: Spider-Gwen!

                My thoughts when I had to stat up DBZ characters:

                * DBZ guys tend to be lower-strength than Marvel or DC ones, but hit just as hard or harder. They add Strength-Based Damage to their physical blows (but are, obviously, quite physically strong with a few "feats" to their names).

                * I ended up sticking "Invisible to Lower-Speed Guys" on every character, because it justified how lower-end guys couldn't see squat, and often got hit unexpectedly. Being Unaware of any foe is a HUGE killer in M&M, and it doesn't even cost a lot of points!

                * Planets and other astral bodies are assumed to be lower-toughness than they are in our world. I mean, MASTER ROSHI blew up the moon. In the early seasons, before everyone could fly! And guys got exponentially more powerful after that!

                * Even low-end DBZ guys are way beyond most comic book characters, and that's by the Frieza Saga.

                * I used that one "Feature" that allows you to increase Area Effects by one degree by spending a Hero Point. As most guys have far-reaching blasts anyways, the doubling actually changes things.

                * For attacks that are part-Blast/part-Area, the Equipment category in the main book shows some weapons that work that way- you just add the cost of Area Damage to Ranged Damage, so the main target takes the brunt, but everything else takes the Area Damage.
                Jabroniville at Hotmail dot com
                [url]http://www.echoesofthemultiverse.com/index.php[/url]

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                • #68
                  Re: Lara's Treasures: Spider-Gwen!

                  Originally posted by Jabroniville View Post
                  DBZ guys tend to be lower-strength than Marvel or DC ones, but hit just as hard or harder. They add Strength-Based Damage to their physical blows (but are, obviously, quite physically strong with a few "feats" to their names).
                  Yeah, I touched on that above. Striking power is crazy high, lifting capacities undersold. This is just the way it is. Western writers tend to attach numbers to feats that have no actual meaning, and manga writers attach meaning to feats with no real numbers. DC tends to really overinflate their numbers, but Marvel is just as bad in a different way.

                  Originally posted by Jabroniville View Post
                  I ended up sticking "Invisible to Lower-Speed Guys" on every character, because it justified how lower-end guys couldn't see squat, and often got hit unexpectedly. Being Unaware of any foe is a HUGE killer in M&M, and it doesn't even cost a lot of points!
                  I may just make it a setting rule, because it makes sense. Plus the idea of super speed differences making it harder to defend in general.

                  Originally posted by Jabroniville View Post
                  Planets and other astral bodies are assumed to be lower-toughness than they are in our world. I mean, MASTER ROSHI blew up the moon. In the early seasons, before everyone could fly! And guys got exponentially more powerful after that!
                  While it makes sense, I never have liked that solution. There's no indication of it, really. It's more that energy attacks in Dragon Ball are ridiculously strong. Every character is basically a super-mage, whose energy attacks outstrip their (absurd) physical abilities.

                  Originally posted by Jabroniville View Post
                  Even low-end DBZ guys are way beyond most comic book characters, and that's by the Frieza Saga.
                  It's interesting. They have abilities that are super-ridiculous, but can't do some stuff that is pretty common in Western superheroes. Just the differences between storytelling styles.

                  Originally posted by Jabroniville View Post
                  I used that one "Feature" that allows you to increase Area Effects by one degree by spending a Hero Point. As most guys have far-reaching blasts anyways, the doubling actually changes things.
                  I'm probably going to just adopt the 2E way of doing Area. The 3E version is vastly overpriced and prohibitive, especially when you want to do something like this.

                  Originally posted by Jabroniville View Post
                  For attacks that are part-Blast/part-Area, the Equipment category in the main book shows some weapons that work that way- you just add the cost of Area Damage to Ranged Damage, so the main target takes the brunt, but everything else takes the Area Damage.
                  They have this in the Gadget Guides, too, under the Heavy Weapons section. Hm. I might have to look into it, though I might also want an option so that if the direct hit part is defended, the area effect part is either greatly reduced or negated entirely.

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                  • #69
                    Re: Lara's Treasures: Spider-Gwen!

                    They have this in the Gadget Guides, too, under the Heavy Weapons section. Hm. I might have to look into it, though I might also want an option so that if the direct hit part is defended, the area effect part is either greatly reduced or negated entirely.
                    Maybe if a guy defends against the Blast portion, he's automatically granted the Evasion Advantage against the resulting burst?

                    It's interesting. They have abilities that are super-ridiculous, but can't do some stuff that is pretty common in Western superheroes. Just the differences between storytelling styles.
                    Like what? Like the various other powers common in the West (Magic, Psionics, etc.), or something else?
                    Jabroniville at Hotmail dot com
                    [url]http://www.echoesofthemultiverse.com/index.php[/url]

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                    • #70
                      Re: Lara's Treasures: Spider-Gwen!

                      Something to keep in mind about Earth destroying attacks is that if you actually roll to hit (it's not like you're going to miss) you get an automatic crit for +5 damage. I always assumed some of the bigger DBZ attacks were linked to a Weaken effect to explain how devastating they are. If you go that route, add the crit and possibly power attack, you wouldn't need crazy high damage levels for Earth shattering attacks. Granted this is DBZ which pretty much personifies crazy power levels, so your mileage may vary.

                      P.S. This world/adventure sounds really fun! Can't wait to see some of the builds.

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                      • #71
                        Re: Lara's Treasures: Spider-Gwen!

                        Good point. I considered earlier a Weaken Toughness effect linked to the Damage, but then forgot about it until you brought it up. Does help keep the numbers a little more manageable. If so, then all I need to do is figure out the speed thing and the way that area attacks work. Basically, projected impact area burst, as it were. You shoot a beam that detonates into an explosion at the point of impact. A character can block it and the explosion doesn't wipe out the planet. Or it can be deflected away and the explosion doesn't wipe out the planet. The character can aim it properly or hold back the area damage so that it doesn't wipe out the planet. But if it's left uncontrolled, or fired directly at the planet, it can completely destroy the world. Does that all make sense? How do we manage it?

                        And certainly, I'll share lots of builds and things. For example, my first Saga revolves around an ancient vampire lord. He's holding this martial arts tournament at his castle (unbelievably huge, carved right into the mountains), along with other kinds of activities. Basically, a massive festival with a martial arts tournament as a capstone. No one knows he's a vampire, of course. The prize? A magical scroll that legend tells can lead its reader to the Dragon Balls. Gathering all seven Dragon Balls allows one, it is said, to summon the Eternal Dragon, who can grant his summoner a wish. Of course, Lord Sorekt is manipulating the heroes because he plans to use the wish for himself, and wish for eternal night! So this tournament right off the bat will feature all kinds of cool classic monsters as fighters. A wolfman who can power up into werewolf form for bigtime speed and damage. A death knight. A ghost fighter with unlimited stamina. That kind of thing. Even a fighter with an alchemical potion to turn invisible, of course.
                        Last edited by Lara Croft; 15th October 2016, 02:43 AM.

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                        • #72
                          Re: Lara's Treasures: Spider-Gwen!

                          Originally posted by Lara Croft View Post
                          I don't use PLs. Check out my builds in this thread, including Spider-Gwen just above. PLs are useful to a degree, but I figure, the game requires GM oversight anyway. I don't need them, I don't like how they force certain things, and I greatly prefer how the game works without them. So that's not an issue.

                          So maybe 2x the difference in Speed ranks as a bonus or penalty? Straight difference between ranks won't be significant enough, I feel. If someone is 3 ranks of movement above you, that's not that big of a difference in terms of rank value, but the measurements and meanings involved are huge.
                          I see. You said you wanted to run an actual game, though, right? Is there some limit in place? What is stopping someone from taking a bunch of points they would have put in attack/defense and putting it in flight instead? Like, player 1 has Block/Dodge and Melee/ranged attack at 15 and flight 15. Player 2 is a much worse fighter, but a member of the fastest species in the galaxy and has Block/Dodge/Melee/Ranged 10 and flight 25. Both builds cost the same.

                          If these two fight, player 2 gets a bonus of 10, putting him above the other. And I didn't even really cheese the second build.

                          Now each of them has a duel with Speedo, fastest demonlord of planet Poola, who can go several times the speed of light (flight 30). He gets 30 bonus against player 1, and only 10 against player 2, giving player 1 even more of a disadvantage.

                          In short: mathematically, it will be better to invest in speed instead of actual fighting skills.
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                          • #73
                            Re: Lara's Treasures: Spider-Gwen!

                            Originally posted by danelsan View Post
                            I see. You said you wanted to run an actual game, though, right? Is there some limit in place? What is stopping someone from taking a bunch of points they would have put in attack/defense and putting it in flight instead? Like, player 1 has Block/Dodge and Melee/ranged attack at 15 and flight 15. Player 2 is a much worse fighter, but a member of the fastest species in the galaxy and has Block/Dodge/Melee/Ranged 10 and flight 25. Both builds cost the same.

                            If these two fight, player 2 gets a bonus of 10, putting him above the other. And I didn't even really cheese the second build.

                            Now each of them has a duel with Speedo, fastest demonlord of planet Poola, who can go several times the speed of light (flight 30). He gets 30 bonus against player 1, and only 10 against player 2, giving player 1 even more of a disadvantage.

                            In short: mathematically, it will be better to invest in speed instead of actual fighting skills.
                            There will be limits, yes. Funny enough, I'll be using vague "power level" benchmarks as the original series does (not the M&M term), based on various characters I consider iconic at each "tier." That may not make sense, so let me try to explain it a little more:

                            I actually use each "Saga" as itself a tier determining the absolute maximums in a given trait a character can have. So, basically, in "Saiyan Saga" levels, Vegeta is my benchmark for maximums. So you're roughly as strong as Raditz, or Goku and Piccolo around that time. Then there's Nappa, who's somewhat beyond them, and Vegeta above that. We can attach vague power level numbers like the show does, but they're largely fluff. Basically, I base trait limits relative to a given character. So, while we're at Saiyan Saga levels, these are the absolute maximums in speed, strength, energy blast, etc. Now, what I will do is let players trade a little bit here and there. Maybe you're exceptionally fast for your power level, though you're not as strong as the big Namekian.

                            That's the plan, if it makes sense.

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                            • #74
                              Re: Lara's Treasures: Spider-Gwen!

                              Yeah, with my DBZ builds, I actually threw out the "standard" power-scale and instead built every character at multiple PLs, "scaling them back" every time a new arc formed. Because Krillin by the "Frieza Saga" could have defeated Vegeta from the "Vegeta Saga" in about five seconds, but by the "Frieza Saga", Vegeta was now three or four times as powerful again. This meant I didn't have to keep building everyone up to insane levels (Krillin again was at least PL 12-14 by the "Vegeta Saga" ALONE- how much more powerful would he be a couple more seasons in?)- I could just "cycle back" to the original standards, since a lot of the tiers remained static, even as power grew.
                              Jabroniville at Hotmail dot com
                              [url]http://www.echoesofthemultiverse.com/index.php[/url]

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                              • #75
                                Re: Lara's Treasures: Spider-Gwen!

                                In my own campaign, I acknowledge PLs, as I recognise that they have some use to the larger game world, but I actually run my game with PL 10 characters and PL 14 characters on the same team (with a lot of 11 and 12s). So, it's debatable how much I actually use them.

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