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  • #31
    Originally posted by Bothrops View Post
    Finally: You need 12 ranks of Growth (= like the largest sauropod dinosaurs) to make area attacks against human-sized targets, not 8.
    Now that should also be in the book. Apparently I've not read the size powers part of Power Profiles. The whole size difference creating circumstance bonuses/penalties to defenses would make a lot more sense than having growth or shrinking directly affect defenses.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by jmucchiello View Post

      Now that should also be in the book. Apparently I've not read the size powers part of Power Profiles. The whole size difference creating circumstance bonuses/penalties to defenses would make a lot more sense than having growth or shrinking directly affect defenses.
      That showed up back in 1E and 2E, but they also had the somewhat hamfisted adaptation of d20 size rules that worked on a geometric scale that made Shrinking really powerful at high ranks since accuracy shot up (and was considered a circumstance bonus), but attacks that didn't depend on Strength stayed high.
      [url=http://roninarmy.com/threads/996]My Builds[/url]

      [b]Current games:[/b]
      [url=http://www.echoesofthemultiverse.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=839]The J.V. Team (GM)[/URL]

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Squirrelly-sama View Post
        So you're basically defending the way a power that you are just admitting was intentionally designed to be terrible to play. And people do want to play as giants, being a giant character is already something of a fairly recognizable and cliche power set like the flying tank and the terminator style builds. And yes, the Limited to Nighttime flaw would be invalid if most of the campaign is happening at night where they can use their powers or the limit is something the GM shouldn't allow on anything core to the character's stats (like say something that governs their defenses and likely their only offense like with growth characters). So the character is either having to be almost entirely useless about half the time or they are getting a cheaper power for no actual cost. It's no different that having something like one of these characters who has Strength limited to one arm, and you either have to pretty much rarely bring it up like it's a quirk and award them free points for munchkining or constantly come up reasons why this limit screws them over which breeds animosity.
        Yes. M&M's effect system is primarily for simulating all kinds of powers & creatures. And that means that some are not really practical for a PC. If you insist playing a giant, then you logically suffer the drawbacks of being a giant. And as I said before, these are serious enough to justify a point discount on the giant's increased strength & toughness.
        On the issue of the Limited flaw : Well, that's how it works. If you accept this flaw (& reap its discount), then get ready to regularly feel its bite.
        https://roninarmy.com/forum/atomic-think-tank/roll-call/7149-bothrops-pit#post7149

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Bothrops View Post
          Yes. M&M's effect system is primarily for simulating all kinds of powers & creatures. And that means that some are not really practical for a PC. If you insist playing a giant, then you logically suffer the drawbacks of being a giant. And as I said before, these are serious enough to justify a point discount on the giant's increased strength & toughness.
          On the issue of the Limited flaw : Well, that's how it works. If you accept this flaw (& reap its discount), then get ready to regularly feel its bite.
          I feel like you are misunderstanding what I am saying. The issue is that the system intentionally designed the power to be unbalanced in terms of gains and the "Limited" flaw they tried to build into it doesn't actually do anything most of the time or if it is brought up it makes the power flat out unusable. So it comes down to either the the power is completely broken for or against the player. Even other bad powers are at least playable and are just inefficient compared to other options or are OP because of their versatility which can't be calculated with points. This isn't like trying to build batman where the concept is by it's nature expensive and compounds with the system's weird pricing choices to make it less effective than one would think, this is one single core power that's just terribly designed.
          [SIZE=2][FONT=comic sans ms][I][URL="https://roninarmy.com/threads/7721-WAIFU-WARZ-Squirrelly-s-Anime-and-Animation-Builds"]I Build Waifus and Waifu Accessories![/URL][/I][/FONT][/SIZE]

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          • #35
            Growth is underpriced.
            Shrinking is way overpriced.
            And Illusion is bizarrely priced.

            Other than that, the system is fine.

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            • #36
              Jeez, this really gets repetitive & annoying. I get the impression that you 2 try to win an argument at all cost.
              Fine, you're of course free to houserule these issues however you want at YOUR tables. But don't expect others to agree with your position, let alone achieve a forum-wide consensus in your favor.
              https://roninarmy.com/forum/atomic-think-tank/roll-call/7149-bothrops-pit#post7149

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              • #37
                Jeez, this really gets repetitive & annoying. I get the impression that you 2 try to win an argument at all cost.
                Fine, you're of course free to houserule these issues however you want at YOUR tables. But don't expect others to agree with your position, let alone achieve a forum-wide consensus in your favor.
                https://roninarmy.com/forum/atomic-think-tank/roll-call/7149-bothrops-pit#post7149

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                • #38
                  In their defense, this is pretty much what we're left to doing here. Game and character posts are a crapshoot as to whether they'll go through.
                  [url=http://roninarmy.com/threads/996]My Builds[/url]

                  [b]Current games:[/b]
                  [url=http://www.echoesofthemultiverse.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=839]The J.V. Team (GM)[/URL]

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                  • #39
                    I am trying to convince. I don't think your arguments counter mine as you are mostly saying "this is what the designer decided." (Also I'm more annoyed with Shrinking than Growth.)

                    But, obviously I haven't convinced you.

                    That's fine. But trying to win? No. No one wins the Internet.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by jmucchiello View Post
                      I considered that. But I didn't want to deviate that far from the source material.
                      Yeah, as a game designer myself I rarely feel myself terribly beholden to the specific rules when I'm GMing. I know that the authors are not the rules-gods that so many people think them to be, and they are as capable of mistakes as anyone. There's nothing more *fair* than simply having Growth and Shrink cost *exactly* what they're worth in terms of benefits, plus a surcharge for whatever non-numerical benefits they receive for the difference in size or mass.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Bothrops View Post
                        Jeez, this really gets repetitive & annoying. I get the impression that you 2 try to win an argument at all cost.
                        Fine, you're of course free to houserule these issues however you want at YOUR tables. But don't expect others to agree with your position, let alone achieve a forum-wide consensus in your favor.
                        And I could say the same about you, for a a debate to continue there needs to be more than one side you know. The point I am making is that it's terribly designed by default to the point that the two ways to generally houserule it leave it as either basically just ridiculously cheap Strength and Stamina because there's few mechanical hindrances or it's so stupidly limited by treating the narrative flaws as they mechanically should be considered, which you can't buy off, that it's completely unusable, renders the character almost permanently under caps, and there's no point to it existing with it's current price and mechanics.
                        [SIZE=2][FONT=comic sans ms][I][URL="https://roninarmy.com/threads/7721-WAIFU-WARZ-Squirrelly-s-Anime-and-Animation-Builds"]I Build Waifus and Waifu Accessories![/URL][/I][/FONT][/SIZE]

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