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  • Size Powers

    How poorly is Shrinking priced?

    8 ranks of Shrinking = 16 PP
    +8 stealth = 4 PP
    -2 strength = -4 PP
    -4 intimidate = -2 PP
    +4 active defs = 8 PP
    -1 speed = -1 PP
    -2 size ranks = ??

    4 -4 -2 +8 -1 = 5 PP. So 1 size rank is 5.5 PP? Really?

    8 ranks of Shrinking + Normal Strength = 24 PP
    +8 stealth = 4 PP
    +4 active defs = 8 PP
    -2 size ranks = ??

    8 + 4 = 12 PP. So 1 size rank is 6 PP?

    Consistent at least.

    Even if you reduce that to 1 PP per Rank, you only get 5 PP of effect for 8 PP (and 12 PP of effect for 16 PP).

    Should Shrinking be repriced? Or perhaps just removed entirely. Just charge 1 PP per size rank, maximum 5 for -7 size ranks. And if you want the other effects (stealth, strength,etc, just buy them).


    I don't even want to discuss the fact that you should only get -3 ranks of volume per -1 size rank. That's a whole other kettle of fish.
    Last edited by jmucchiello; 04-22-2019, 08:51 AM.

  • #2
    Size Powers

    Growth is even crazier. If you buy 8 ranks of Growth for 16 PP, you not only get 2 size ranks and 8 mass ranks. You also get 23 PP of effect:

    +8 Strength = 16 PP
    +8 Stamina = 16 PP (Constructs only get +8 Toughness, which was probably the better idea for every one. But that's a needless digression.)
    +4 Intimidate = 2 PP
    +1 Speed = 1 PP
    -8 Stealth = -4 PP
    -4 Active Defenses = -8 PP
    +2 Size = ??
    +8 Mass = ??
    That's 16+16+2+1-4-8 = 23 PP of effect for only 16 PP. So, getting bigger by 2 sizes is somehow worth -3.5 PP per rank? (Hey, why doesn't shrinking reduce your mass?)

    Based on my complaint about Shrinking above, it is hard to complain about +2 size ranks costing -7 PP. That is cheaper than my Advantage idea above.

    Now, granted you are getting these extra points because you are not getting the benefit of "Complication: Weighs a few tons". So no extra hero points for you when you character falls through the boardwalk. Or sinks to the bottom of the ocean.

    Growth gets weirder when you consider "Density Only: -0":

    +8 Strength = 16 PP
    +8 Stamina = 16 PP
    -2 Speed = -2 PP (I have no idea where this comes from. I suppose growth is supposed to give you +3 Speed per 8 ranks and -1 Speed per 4 ranks of mass increase so normal growth nets +1 Speed per 8 ranks. Or something.)
    +8 Mass = ??
    So now you get 30 PP for 16 PP and you weight a lot. Every Powerhouse character should have Density Only Growth.
    Last edited by jmucchiello; 04-22-2019, 08:51 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Size Powers

      Here's my fix:
      Growth (Size Power)
      Action: Free; Range: Personal; Duration: Sustained; Cost: 3 points per rank

      You can temporarily increase your size, gaining Strength and Stamina at the cost of becoming a bigger, heavier, less agile target, unable to maneuver through small spaces. Growth modifiers are restricted by power level limits.

      Each rank of Growth adds 1 rank to your Strength and Stamina (constructs add 1 rank to Strength and Toughness if they lack Stamina). Every two ranks adds a +1 bonus to Intimidation. Every four ranks adds 1 rank of Elongation. Every eight ranks adds 1 rank of Speed. Each rank of Growth subtracts 1 from your Stealth checks. Every 2 ranks (rounded up) subtracts 1 from your Dodge and Parry defenses. Every 4 ranks of Growth increases your size rank by 1 and you mass rank by 3 (ordinary humans start out at size rank –2, between 3 and 6 feet tall and at mass rank 2, between 100 and 200 pounds).

      So at Growth 8, you have +8 Strength and Stamina, +4 to Intimidation, +1 Speed, but -8 to Stealth, –4 Dodge and Parry, you are size rank 0 (around 30 feet tall), and you are mass rank 5 (around 1600 pounds). Increases to your Strength and Stamina also improve related traits like your Strength Damage, Fortitude, and Toughness.

      EXTRAS
      Density Increase: Your size does not change. Density Increase does not affect your size, defenses, Intimidation, Stealth, reach, or Speed. +1 cost per rank.

      Shrinking (Size Power)
      Action: Free; Range: Personal; Duration: Sustained; Cost: 1 point per rank

      You can temporarily decrease your size, becoming smaller, harder to see — and hit — at the cost of some speed. Every 4 ranks of Shrinking reduces your size rank by 1 (normal humans are size rank –2 by default) and your mass rank by 3 (normal humans are size rank 2 by default) and every two reductions in size rank subtract 1 from your ground speed rank. Add half your Shrinking rank (rounded down) to your active defenses. Add your Shrinking rank as a bonus to Stealth checks, since you are harder to spot, but apply half your rank (rounded down) as a penalty to intimidation checks (hard to be imposing when you’re tiny). Shrinking modifiers are restricted by power level limits.

      You may not take more than 20 ranks of Shrinking.

      EXTRAS
      Atomic: At Shrinking 20 (and size rank –7), you can shrink down to the molecular or even atomic level, allowing you to pass through solid objects by slipping between their atoms. It takes at least a full turn to do so, possibly longer for larger objects. You’re effectively immune to damage and many effects at this scale, since you are essentially shifted out of the ordinary universe. The GM decides if a particular effect can reach you at the atomic level. If you have this extra, you might also acquire a Dimensional Travel effect allowing you to shift into a sub-atomic “universe” or similar realm. Flat +1 point.

      FLAWS
      Reduced Strength: Every four ranks of Shrinking reduces your Strength by 1. -1 cost per rank.



      Summary

      Eight Ranks of Growth

      +8 Strength = 8 PP
      +8 Stamina = 8 PP
      +4 Intimidate = 2 PP
      +2 Elongation = 2 PP
      +1 Speed = 1 PP
      -8 Stealth = -4 PP
      -4 Dodge and Parry = -8 PP
      8+8+2+2+1-4-8 = 25 PP for 24 cost.

      Eight Ranks of Shrinking

      +8 Stealth = 4 PP
      +4 Dodge and Parry = 8 PP
      -4 Intimidation = -2 PP
      -1 Speed = -1 PP
      4+8-2-1 = 9 PP for 8 cost.

      Analysis
      Thanks to the raised cost and the addition of reach, 8 ranks of Growth costs 24 PP and gives 25 PP of effect. Removing speed changes from Density Increase means 8 ranks of Density Increase costs 32 PP and gives 32 PP of effect.

      Cutting the cost of Shrinking and removing the Strength reduction means 8 ranks of Shrinking costs 8 PP and gives 9 PP of effect. Adding back the Strength reduction as a Flaw means 8 ranks of Reduced Strength Shrinking costs 4 PP and gives 5 PP of effect.
      Last edited by jmucchiello; 04-26-2019, 12:39 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Sorry, but I think that your "fix" isn't really well-thought-out. You simply crunch the numerical bonuses & penalties, without incorporating another MAJOR factor: The effects of size (& weight) in relation to the environment. For example, with just 2 ranks of Growth you'll not fit into most vehicles (let alone operating them), and begin facing difficulties within buildings (remember, this is a HUMAN's world). More ranks would greatly escalate these problems. Imagine the hero team infiltrating the Big Bad's underground fortress, and Mr Giant must stay outside - quite uncool for the latter's player... Therefore, Growth's discount is IMHO justified.
        EDIT: But I completely agree with you that the "Does not change size/Density only"-modifier described in the PP being free of charge (+0 mod) is just ridiculous: You suffer neither the abovementioned size-difficulties nor the defense penalties (and the problems with increased mass rarely come into play at lower ranks) while still reaping the full bonuses to STR & STA. So I'd definitely make it +1/rank at my table.

        Conversely, Shrinking offers nifty possbilities for infiltration, evasion & sabotage, far beyond the numerical stealth bonus (easily finding cover & concealment, fitting through tiny openings etc). A textbook example is the final showdown of Arachnophobia (one of my favourite horror flics), between the human protagonist Dr Jennings (who wields an improvised flamethrower) and the main villain, a highly intelligent & lethally venomous spider named "The General". The latter cleverly uses his small size (like a tarantula, roughly equivalent to Shrinking 10) and the environment (a cluttered poorly-lit basement) to his advantage, letting him dominate the fight. Watch it HERE
        That said, I admit that Shrinking is indeed somewhat overpriced (just like Morph or Communication), but I'd just roll with it.
        Last edited by Bothrops; 05-01-2019, 12:16 PM.
        https://roninarmy.com/forum/atomic-think-tank/roll-call/7149-bothrops-pit#post7149

        Comment


        • #5
          I totally disagree. Size effects are narrative issues. They should not cost points. They should at best be complications.

          Using your size against someone should not cost points. Can you honestly say that 5.5 PP is worth the ability to be half as tall as everyone else? Shrinking is horribly overpriced. Being small enough to sneak into places costs 11 PP over the effect cost of shrinking. Why do that when Permeate costs 2 PP? Or 1 ranks of insubstantial to easily flow through a small hole?

          Comment


          • #6
            I wrote something about this topic in the M&M subreddit here: https://reddit.com/r/mutantsandmaste..._growth_power/

            My solution (both for Growth and Shrink) is to have size cost 1 point per shift in size (up or down) and that's it. Anything you should get for being big or small you just buy it separately and then put it all together in Alternate Form.

            So if you want to make a Growth power, take Alternate Form, add whatever powers/abilities (and drawbacks) you feel are appropriate and then add +1 per size rank difference.

            If you want to be 1-inch tall but have all your traits be normal, take 5 ranks of size change (going from rank -2 to rank -7 size) and you're done. If you want you can take bonuses to your active defenses, penalties to your STR, etc. and just add them to the power.

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            • #7
              I considered that. But I didn't want to deviate that far from the source material.

              If I were doing it that way, I'd allow you to buy +/-3 ranks of mass for a point as well. 3 ranks. mass should change by 3 every rank of size.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by jmucchiello View Post
                I totally disagree. Size effects are narrative issues. They should not cost points. They should at best be complications.
                Obviously, the devs decided otherwise, and I think they're right (at least on the issue of Growth). The size effects are already incorporated into the point cost of Growth/Shrinking. When strictly applying YOUR logic, ALL Flaws "should at best be complications" (i.e. no cost reduction).
                Within actual gaming reality, Growth is very rarely abused as a cheap point discount, since few players are willing to deal with the drawbacks of huge size. Likewise, permanently diminuitive PCs are also rare, so Shrinking is most likely put into an array, alleviating its high cost. It's simply unwise to complain about a rule based on how it looks on paper, without having actually seen it in action first.
                https://roninarmy.com/forum/atomic-think-tank/roll-call/7149-bothrops-pit#post7149

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                • #9
                  Or people don't shrink because it wastes a lot of points.

                  Arguing about point costs is the point of a point-buy system. At least in my decades of playing such games. Things can always be improved.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I have to agree that the side effects of growth really aren't being considered. Being only 12' high, double standard human, means you can't fit inside buildings. You won't fit through doorways. You can't ride any closed top vehicles. Your hands are too big to press any buttons, type or other such things. These are MASSIVE drawbacks.
                    Then you consider increased mass. at 4x weight you start having a lot of issue. Can't use a lift. Every seat you sit on breaks. Sit in a vehicle and it becomes ludicrously lopsided, or the springs give way. (Remember, this is 4x weight in the same area, not spread through out the car). Go much higher and you walk in the street and it collapses under you, dropping you into the sewers. (Do the pressure calculations yourself). Teammates cannot carry you, or even pick you up without superstrength, so you'd better be able to fly yourself.
                    There are lots of drawbacks to growth and density that are not purely numerically based.
                    How much would a flaw dies if uses power inside a building be worth (crushed by walls)? immobilised inside a building as too big to move? Cannot go above ground floor as building floor will collapse?
                    Last edited by GrumpyOldAndy; 05-20-2019, 08:08 AM.

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                    • #11
                      Not fitting into buildings is a complication. Being heavy is a complication. Everything in your post sounds like a complication. M&M does not give you free PP for complications. That's how Champions works, not M&M. Or are you saying you should get free PPs for complications related to your powers?

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by jmucchiello View Post
                        Not fitting into buildings is a complication. Being heavy is a complication. Everything in your post sounds like a complication. M&M does not give you free PP for complications. That's how Champions works, not M&M. Or are you saying you should get free PPs for complications related to your powers?
                        Looking through the rules a complication is a flaw that doesn't happen very often. "A limit that rarely comes into play—like losing your Enhanced Trait during a new
                        moon—can be handled as a power loss complication" - limited flaw, enhanced trait power pg 158 in the deluxe handbook
                        So yes, the power has built in flaws, which make it cheaper than it otherwise would be. Saying the power doesn't work in a building seems much too common an occurrence to be a complication. IMO.

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                        • #13
                          So explain why shrinking is overpriced. (the analysis starts with shrinking) There are just as many disadvantages to being small as there are advantages. So why is the price for that so out expensive compared to the utility effect?

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                          • #14
                            I'm not saying the points cost pricing is correct. I am saying that the powers do have built in advantages and disadvantages, so don't expect them to give the same stats as just buying those stats.

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                            • #15
                              I'm saying the pricing is outrageously wrong for shrinking and should be fixed. 5 points of utility for 16 PP is broken. I've always wondered why shrinking is so infrequently seen until I tried to make a shrinking character. Imagine if you wanted to use the atomic option. It would cost 40 PP (plus 1) and only get you 12 points of utility (plus 1 point for dimension travel). Ridiculous.

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