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Any RAW way to make Resistible Morph have a higher DC than 14?

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  • Any RAW way to make Resistible Morph have a higher DC than 14?

    Pretty much what the title says. Resistible (Will) is a flavorful and recommended Flaw to give to a Morph effect, but I can't figure out how to make it high-enough rank to make such a power worthwhile.

    If not by RAW, then by RAI? Or do I just need to homebrew a cost for "extra Morph ranks" that do nothing but add to the DC?

  • #2
    Re: Any RAW way to make Resistible Morph have a higher DC than 14?

    The closest I've found in RAW is in Power Profiles, where "Dimensional Banishment" looks too charge 1 pp/rank of extra DC (plus range modifiers).

    Dimensional Banishment: Perception Ranged Movement
    (Dimensional Travel 1) Attack (Resisted by Dodge or Will)
    • 4 points + 3 points per +1 to resistance DC
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    • #3
      Re: Any RAW way to make Resistible Morph have a higher DC than 14?

      Originally posted by CaptainKaulu View Post
      Pretty much what the title says. Resistible (Will) is a flavorful and recommended Flaw to give to a Morph effect, but I can't figure out how to make it high-enough rank to make such a power worthwhile.

      If not by RAW, then by RAI? Or do I just need to homebrew a cost for "extra Morph ranks" that do nothing but add to the DC?

      Morph 4, Resistible PLUS Morph #, Resistible, Limited to (Increasing) Resistance

      Also useful for Illusions, but the opposite: eg Illusion #, PLUS Illusion #, Limited to (Increasing) Volume

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      • #4
        Re: Any RAW way to make Resistible Morph have a higher DC than 14?

        Resistible is a bit of an odd duck rules-wise when you get into the cost of it. The natural assumption is that you would buy it at rank of the power like most modifiers and then resist at that rank. However, if you start thinking in terms of Partial Ranks the logic starts to break. If I use less Res-ranks than total Power rank, that makes the DC lower, meaning it's easier to overcome, but it also means I'm Flawing it less, therefore getting less discount and ultimately paying more points for a less effective power. The opposite means I'm "buying" more ranks than the power, making a less costly power that is harder to resist.

        To illustrate, apply numbers to the RAW example:

        Originally posted by Deluxe Handbook/Powers/Modifiers/Flaws/Resistible
        For example, an Enhanced Parry defense effect might reflect a low-level reading of a target’s mind to anticipate and avoid attacks. It allows a Will resistance check to overcome the effect, denying you the defense bonus against that opponent (and applying this flaw to the effect).
        If Enhanced Parry was 6 with Resistible by Will, an attacker needs a DC16 Will check to overcome it, which is relatively easy in a PL10 setting (70% chance for a Will 10 attacker); discount is 3p. If it's Enh Parry 14, then it's DC24, with only a 30% of being overcome by the same attack, but giving a 7p discount.

        This allows higher-rank powers to get a bigger discount on cost with less loss of function than low-ranked powers, which is unbalanced. It's a rules-equivalent of the rich getting richer. And it becomes most obvious for powers like Morph or Concealment that have their functionality capped at lower ranks.

        The best way I see to make Resistible work fairly for its cost is to houserule its functionality in two steps:

        1) Make the standard at-rank Resistible modifier have resistance rank equal to setting PL, not the power. This follows the "about 50% effective" guideline for -1 Full Flaws reqardless of power rank.

        2) Reverse the costs so that increasing Resistible DC costs +1p and decreasing costs -1p, which seems intuitive but is the opposite of the way the rules imply.

        For your Morph 4, under RAW you end up with a DC14 Will check to overcome the disguise you paid [20base-4ResFlaw=] 16p for, making it almost useless against non-minions in most settings. With this fix, the cost doesn't change but the DC becomes 10+setting PL, so DC20 for a standard PL10 game and on par with other powers that are normally resisted. If for some reason you wanted to set DC at 14 using that fix, the discount would be 10p instead of 4p [-6DC=-6p] and if you wanted to increase DC to 24, that would effectively cancel out your discount. The greatest strength of this fix, though, is that you probably won't need or even want to fiddle with the DC if it's tied to PL, but the option is available.
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        • #5
          Re: Any RAW way to make Resistible Morph have a higher DC than 14?

          I would use character PL in place of setting PL.

          Would there be a problem with a flat ranked extra specific to affects other, attack effects?

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          • #6
            Re: Any RAW way to make Resistible Morph have a higher DC than 14?

            The two kosher methods I know are
            1) buy extra ranks, Limited to increasing DC
            2) buy ranks of Feature with the power, equal to the ranks you want for the DC, the feature being "increased DC."
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            • #7
              Re: Any RAW way to make Resistible Morph have a higher DC than 14?

              Why are you doing Resistible Morph? You should be using an Affliction with Transformed as the 3rd degree.

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              • #8
                Re: Any RAW way to make Resistible Morph have a higher DC than 14?

                Originally posted by jmucchiello View Post
                Why are you doing Resistible Morph? You should be using an Affliction with Transformed as the 3rd degree.
                That would be if you wanted a Morph Attack against others. If you had a personal Morph power that was effectively hallucinatory (ie affects the observer's mind), then it can be possible for them to mentally shake it off, hence Resistible by Will.

                Fuzzyboots brought in an example of increasing DC, but it was for an Attack Modified personal effect. The OP was asking about a personal effect that could be overcome. The former is, IMO, usually better represented by an Affliction instead of any ad hoc DC increases, while the latter needs the adjustments I described above to make sense cost-wise.
                Last edited by JDRook; 6th April 2019, 01:59 PM.
                My old [URL="http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?p=743877#p743877"]Atomic Think Tank[/URL] thread
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                [/URL]
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                • #9
                  Re: Any RAW way to make Resistible Morph have a higher DC than 14?

                  Originally posted by JDRook View Post
                  That would be if you wanted a Morph Attack against others. If you had a personal Morph power that was effectively hallucinatory (ie affects the observer's mind), then it can be possible for them to mentally shake it off, hence Resistible by Will.

                  Fuzzyboots brought in an example of increasing DC, but it was for an Attack Modified personal effect. The OP was asking about a personal effect that could be overcome. The former is, IMO, usually better represented by an Affliction instead of any ad hoc DC increases, while the latter needs the adjustments I described above to make sense cost-wise.
                  I guess I don't understand what's being done. Morph already "requires" a Disguise check with a +20 bonus vs. the opponent's Perception. A quirk for "Bonus to Deception reduced by 5, to +15 (or 10 or 0 depending one how much quirk you put into it)" should cover a resistible Morph much cleaner than adding ranks to RAISE to DC of a Will Check.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Any RAW way to make Resistible Morph have a higher DC than 14?

                    You could just add a Quirk (mental only), so it won't work on constructs, cameras, etc. rather than making it Resistible.
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                    • #11
                      Re: Any RAW way to make Resistible Morph have a higher DC than 14?

                      Originally posted by jmucchiello View Post
                      I guess I don't understand what's being done. Morph already "requires" a Disguise check with a +20 bonus vs. the opponent's Perception. A quirk for "Bonus to Deception reduced by 5, to +15 (or 10 or 0 depending one how much quirk you put into it)" should cover a resistible Morph much cleaner than adding ranks to RAISE to DC of a Will Check.
                      Morph is (as the name implies) something that physically changes your form. It's not perfect, so people might see through it with an Insight check. However, even if they succeed, they might not know who that is.

                      A resistable Morph is simply messing with someone's head. If they make a Will save, it fails to affect them. Either they see a wispy illusion around you (but can spot you) or it has no effect on them at all. (This could be hilarious, if someone walked in looking like the CEO, but one random employee sees a random person, and wonders why everyone is getting the situation wrong.) If someone failed the Will save but succeeded at the Insight check, they'd notice something "wrong" but wouldn't see who is really there.

                      Resistable exists to weaken a power. Sometimes it's there for logical reasons. For instance a snake's poisonous bite attack should be Resistable, because if it fails to bite through your ankle armor, it can't deliver the poison. At this point the victim can make a saving throw. (The save DC should be high enough that a non-superhuman would usually fail the save, and the effects should last a long time too. Also, the typical person doesn't wear armored boots.)


                      Originally posted by pawsplay View Post
                      You could just add a Quirk (mental only), so it won't work on constructs, cameras, etc. rather than making it Resistible.

                      That should also fail against anyone immune to Mental abilities... I think that's worth more than a Quirk.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Any RAW way to make Resistible Morph have a higher DC than 14?

                        Originally posted by Kimera757 View Post
                        Morph is (as the name implies) something that physically changes your form. It's not perfect, so people might see through it with an Insight check. However, even if they succeed, they might not know who that is.

                        A resistable Morph is simply messing with someone's head. If they make a Will save, it fails to affect them. Either they see a wispy illusion around you (but can spot you) or it has no effect on them at all. (This could be hilarious, if someone walked in looking like the CEO, but one random employee sees a random person, and wonders why everyone is getting the situation wrong.) If someone failed the Will save but succeeded at the Insight check, they'd notice something "wrong" but wouldn't see who is really there.
                        This sounds like an illusion. Use that power effect.

                        Resistable exists to weaken a power. Sometimes it's there for logical reasons. For instance a snake's poisonous bite attack should be Resistable, because if it fails to bite through your ankle armor, it can't deliver the poison. At this point the victim can make a saving throw. (The save DC should be high enough that a non-superhuman would usually fail the save, and the effects should last a long time too. Also, the typical person doesn't wear armored boots.)
                        Um. All attacks are resistible. Making a snake bite have two resistance rolls isn't really necessary.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Any RAW way to make Resistible Morph have a higher DC than 14?

                          Originally posted by Kimera757 View Post
                          That should also fail against anyone immune to Mental abilities... I think that's worth more than a Quirk.
                          My reasoning was that Limited is far too generous, since far less than half of opponents are constructs or immune to mental abilities. it's kind of inconvenient for cameras, but then again, you can exploit the fact that a camera can't tell who you were disguised as. Maybe I'm underestimating the limitations, though. I don't see it as being worse than, say, full power, or powers that can only do a certain color.
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