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  • house rules for array point cost

    Many people think arrays are strong (whether too strong depends on you)

    What would anyone think of the following house rule:

    Each additional alternate effect in your array costs one extra pp than the last one.

    Examples:
    Strong array: Two powers with base cost 20 pp [ 21 PP ]

    Normal rules, Strong Array would also cost 21 PP

    Crazy Magic Array: 6 powers, base power cost of 16 pp [ 31 PP ]

    Normal rules, Crazy Magic Array would cost 21 PP only.

  • #2
    Re: house rules for array point cost

    No need. People who take many powers in an array are already nerfing themselves; it's much more efficient to just take the most-used powers and just use Extra Effort for the rarely-used ones. Generally, if I create a PC with many array powers it's because I have a strong concept in mind and I'm sacrificing PP for the sake of the concept. I know it's way smarter to choose only a few powers though.

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    • #3
      Re: house rules for array point cost

      Adding multiple attack types to an array doesn't seem like it would be worth the cost you propose since you can only use one at a time anyway. The bigger issue with arrays is if people start adding other actions like Teleport, since that starts giving you huge out of combat powers. GM discretion seems like the best way to limit this. Also remember that you can't sustain things while using an alternate effect, which is a problem if you have alternate effects to flying, for example.

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      • #4
        Re: house rules for array point cost

        Just make a hard fast rule of "You can only change an array once per round" and don't allow any exceptions to this rule. Period. Ever.

        No Extra Effort, no HP.

        It does keep them in check quite a bit.

        Edit: Also, no permanent powers, and Continuous powers switch off when you change the array.
        [HR][/HR][URL="http://roninarmy.com/threads/60-Kenseido-s-Menagerie"]Kenseido's Menagerie of Characters[/URL]

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        • #5
          Re: house rules for array point cost

          Originally posted by kenseido View Post
          Just make a hard fast rule of "You can only change an array once per round" and don't allow any exceptions to this rule. Period. Ever.

          No Extra Effort, no HP.

          It does keep them in check quite a bit.

          Edit: Also, no permanent powers, and Continuous powers switch off when you change the array.
          You do realize that all of that is just RAW for arrays, right? All you are saying is enforce the rules.


          I probably would allow the extra change in a round for a HP or extra effort personally, but even that is technically outside of RAW.
          Classic car restoring, gun owning, martial arts practicing, military, gamer geek, kinky lesbian IT chick (has your brain exploded yet?)
          [URL="http://roninarmy.com/threads/1835-Digital-s-Daemons"]My character library[/URL]

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          • #6
            Re: house rules for array point cost

            Yes, but I have seen people try to make these slide. There are a lot of things that if you play RAW aren't really that bad, but a lot of people don't. Especially some of the rules that changed from 2e to 3e.
            [HR][/HR][URL="http://roninarmy.com/threads/60-Kenseido-s-Menagerie"]Kenseido's Menagerie of Characters[/URL]

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            • #7
              Re: house rules for array point cost

              Just saying the like a lot of other things that can be abused when GMs start letting rules slide, the easy answer is just enforce the rules. Even rules lawyer players can't even argue with that.

              I'll admit that I have to double check rules all the time on certain issues, especially bouncing between 2E and 3E games at times or just being used to certain house rules and then playing with a GM that doesn't use those.
              Classic car restoring, gun owning, martial arts practicing, military, gamer geek, kinky lesbian IT chick (has your brain exploded yet?)
              [URL="http://roninarmy.com/threads/1835-Digital-s-Daemons"]My character library[/URL]

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              • #8
                Re: house rules for array point cost

                Originally posted by digitalangel View Post
                Even rules lawyer players can't even argue with that.
                I'll have to introduce you to few.

                Originally posted by digitalangel View Post
                I'll admit that I have to double check rules all the time on certain issues, especially bouncing between 2E and 3E games at times or just being used to certain house rules and then playing with a GM that doesn't use those.
                I am a big believer that house rules need to be documented somewhere so people can see them and refer to them, same as a rulebook. I had so many house rules for 2e, I think it scared off potential players. When I moved to 3e, I just accepted the rules were less crunchy and more for ease of play. I ended up with 2 House Rules, one around Grappling and one on the cost of Regen. Once it was shown to me that grappling was based on Affliction, I reverted to RAW since, while it didn't fit real world grappling, it was consistent. I still double the cost of Regen.
                [HR][/HR][URL="http://roninarmy.com/threads/60-Kenseido-s-Menagerie"]Kenseido's Menagerie of Characters[/URL]

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                • #9
                  Re: house rules for array point cost

                  Originally posted by kenseido View Post
                  I'll have to introduce you to few.
                  Trust me, I have 3 engineering degrees and most of my gaming group in college were all other applied science/engineering students. I have heard rules lawyering that you wouldn't believe. Usually more about how the rule should work based on real world science instead of about what it actually says on paper, but yeah ... The most exaggerated example that jumps to mind was actually calculating the blast radius for something that was a campaign (world) ending action in a Rifts game once. Assuming a planetary alignment at the time, Jupiter would have been hit by it.


                  I am a big believer that house rules need to be documented somewhere so people can see them and refer to them, same as a rulebook. I had so many house rules for 2e, I think it scared off potential players. When I moved to 3e, I just accepted the rules were less crunchy and more for ease of play. I ended up with 2 House Rules, one around Grappling and one on the cost of Regen. Once it was shown to me that grappling was based on Affliction, I reverted to RAW since, while it didn't fit real world grappling, it was consistent. I still double the cost of Regen.
                  I always note house rules on paper for that very reason. The only thing I tend to house rule into my 3E games on a regular basis is just reverting to 2E skills. Other than that my house rules tend to be on a campaign by campaign basis as added flavoring to the world if I want the game world to have a certain feel to it.
                  Classic car restoring, gun owning, martial arts practicing, military, gamer geek, kinky lesbian IT chick (has your brain exploded yet?)
                  [URL="http://roninarmy.com/threads/1835-Digital-s-Daemons"]My character library[/URL]

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                  • #10
                    Re: house rules for array point cost

                    Originally posted by digitalangel View Post
                    I always note house rules on paper for that very reason. The only thing I tend to house rule into my 3E games on a regular basis is just reverting to 2E skills. Other than that my house rules tend to be on a campaign by campaign basis as added flavoring to the world if I want the game world to have a certain feel to it.
                    I presume you have an exception for combat skills.
                    [HR][/HR][URL="http://roninarmy.com/threads/60-Kenseido-s-Menagerie"]Kenseido's Menagerie of Characters[/URL]

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                    • #11
                      Re: house rules for array point cost

                      Originally posted by kenseido View Post
                      I presume you have an exception for combat skills.
                      That same combat skills in 3E existed in 2E, just under different names your ranged and melee attack bonus, but the cost comes out the same. There is some tweaking needed to adjust to the new stats in 3E and such.

                      I just personally really prefer the extra crunchiness in the 2E skills list, and in general, but 3E made some good changes as well. Basically at my table we play M&M 2.5 in between the 2 versions. I keep slowly making the transition to purely 3E playing in games run by other people, but certain things from 2E I will always prefer. The whole 2E vs 3E arguement is an old one and has been hashed out more times than I would like to count on the boards already.

                      I completely agree with your previous statement about the Grappling rules between the versions. 2E feels more correct as a model, but 3E rules are more straight forward to understand.
                      Classic car restoring, gun owning, martial arts practicing, military, gamer geek, kinky lesbian IT chick (has your brain exploded yet?)
                      [URL="http://roninarmy.com/threads/1835-Digital-s-Daemons"]My character library[/URL]

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                      • #12
                        Re: house rules for array point cost

                        Oh, I see, you are using the 2e skill list, not 2e skill costs.
                        [HR][/HR][URL="http://roninarmy.com/threads/60-Kenseido-s-Menagerie"]Kenseido's Menagerie of Characters[/URL]

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                        • #13
                          Re: house rules for array point cost

                          Some thoughts:
                          People complaining about arrays are usually GMs with a deeply ingrained orthodox "D&D-mindset" - "Get an extra power for just 1 point? NO WAY!!!"
                          Yet the array is a basic component of the M&M system, so I'd say "just roll with it". But if you still have serious issues with the concept of arrays (and the possibilities they grant), then perhaps M&M isn't the right game for you.
                          That said, of course arrays can be abused (just like so many things in M&M) so they require some GM oversight. Yet I'd rather decide on a case-by-case basis, and avoid making blanket rulings.


                          Originally posted by DeanH
                          The bigger issue with arrays is if people start adding other actions like Teleport, since that starts giving you huge out of combat powers.
                          So what? IMHO this is a perfectly legitimate use of an array. In this case, it's a utility/travel teleport effect, since you cannot use it simultaneously with your combat powers.


                          Originally posted by kenseido
                          Edit: Also, no permanent powers, and Continuous powers switch off when you change the array.
                          ...
                          Yes, but I have seen people try to make these slide.
                          I freely admit I'm one of these people - at least when dealing with certain fringe cases.
                          The foremost ones are continuous/permanent Create & Transform, and this was even endorsed by the devs (and indirectly by official builds). Sounds really silly to me, if Mr Freeze's ice blocks would suddenly vanish the moment he changes the settings of his ice-gun.
                          The other special case is an array of alternate forms: If you change into, say, an elephant, having non-permanent Growth would enable you to freely change your size.
                          In such an array, each slot contains multiple effects (the traits of the alt-form), and if one of these is permanent, you still cannot selectively turn it off. You'd have to switch off the whole alt-form (& all its traits) - it's all or nothing.
                          https://roninarmy.com/forum/atomic-think-tank/roll-call/7149-bothrops-pit#post7149

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                          • #14
                            Re: house rules for array point cost

                            Originally posted by Bothrops View Post
                            I freely admit I'm one of these people - at least when dealing with certain fringe cases.
                            The foremost ones are continuous/permanent Create & Transform, and this was even endorsed by the devs (and indirectly by official builds). Sounds really silly to me, if Mr Freeze's ice blocks would suddenly vanish the moment he changes the settings of his ice-gun.
                            The other special case is an array of alternate forms: If you change into, say, an elephant, having non-permanent Growth would enable you to freely change your size.
                            In such an array, each slot contains multiple effects (the traits of the alt-form), and if one of these is permanent, you still cannot selectively turn it off. You'd have to switch off the whole alt-form (& all its traits) - it's all or nothing.
                            I totally agree with what you are saying. I did like that in 2e, they had Independent which would last beyond switching powers in an array. It is basically Continuous + Fades for +0.

                            INcidentally, I believe Steve, back when he was doing official answers on the old forum did say Continuous Create would stay up after the array switches. Most people generally treated that section of ATT as RAW.
                            [HR][/HR][URL="http://roninarmy.com/threads/60-Kenseido-s-Menagerie"]Kenseido's Menagerie of Characters[/URL]

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                            • #15
                              Re: house rules for array point cost

                              Originally posted by kenseido View Post
                              I totally agree with what you are saying. I did like that in 2e, they had Independent which would last beyond switching powers in an array. It is basically Continuous + Fades for +0.

                              INcidentally, I believe Steve, back when he was doing official answers on the old forum did say Continuous Create would stay up after the array switches. Most people generally treated that section of ATT as RAW.
                              As a houserule, I revived the old 2e Independent extra for 3e, in a more simplified version. I renamed it as "Enduring" to avoid confusion though, since the name "Independent" is already used for an Illusion extra (allows maintaining active illusions as a free action).
                              Enduring: +2 flat extra
                              This extra can be added to a Sustained effect. Normally it's only meant for Create, Transform, Environment, Obscure (see Power Profiles), and static Illusions; the GM may permit other effects (attack- or trait effects are off-limits). An enduring effect sustains itself for 30 seconds (time rank 2) before ceasing. The user has no further control over the effect, it becomes completely independent immediately after initiation. This also means that the effect continues working even when in an array that's switched away. Enduring is basically a simplified reincarnation of the old 2e Independent extra. I decided to recreate it in a new version, since I was unsatisfied with Secondary Effect (or Cloud area) alone (they both work fine for attack effects, but for the abovementioned ones they're quite awkward & unduly expensive) and wanted more options.
                              https://roninarmy.com/forum/atomic-think-tank/roll-call/7149-bothrops-pit#post7149

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