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Insubstantial and an Affliction usable only in that form

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  • Insubstantial and an Affliction usable only in that form

    If my character has a form that is Rank 4 Insubstantial (Incorporeal) and a Rank 10 Affliction that can only be used while in that form, do I need to purchase 10 Ranks in the Affects Corporeal extra for that Affliction Power to be effective against tangible targets?

  • #2
    Re: Insubstantial and an Affliction usable only in that form

    Yes.
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    • #3
      Re: Insubstantial and an Affliction usable only in that form

      Technically the answer is yes, usually. You might be able to get away without it depending on the descriptors involved.

      A good example is the ghost on page 88 of the Book of Magic 2E. The ghost has Insubstantial 4, and if you give it Drain or a Damage effect, it needs affect corporeal, but possession or paralysis didn't. If you are using something with a mental descriptor then you can probably get away without affects corporeal, but if you want to affect their body, yes you need it.
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      • #4
        Re: Insubstantial and an Affliction usable only in that form

        Originally posted by digitalangel View Post
        Technically the answer is yes, usually. You might be able to get away without it depending on the descriptors involved.

        A good example is the ghost on page 88 of the Book of Magic 2E. The ghost has Insubstantial 4, and if you give it Drain or a Damage effect, it needs affect corporeal, but possession or paralysis didn't. If you are using something with a mental descriptor then you can probably get away without affects corporeal, but if you want to affect their body, yes you need it.
        Basically he is an undead individual who can take on multiple forms. One of his forms is indeed a Ghost Form. The affliction power is essentially Possession from page 129 of Power Profiles.

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        • #5
          Re: Insubstantial and an Affliction usable only in that form

          Using the ghost in Book of Magic as a guide, Possession did not need affects corporeal.

          The options they gave for ghosts powers were:

          Some of the abilities exhibited by singular entities are different than
          the standard apparition. Add from the following as appropriate, and
          adjust final point costs (and both PL and Minion Rank) as needed:
          • “Each body but a shell…”: Possession 10
          • “See my pain, live my pain…”: Illusion 10 (all senses; Damaging,
          Independent; Limited- only to replay events and scenes from ghost’s
          past)
          • “Cower in my presence…”: Paralyze 8 (Perception Area; Sense-
          Dependent [sight])
          • “Share the breath of your life with me…”: Drain Constitution 8
          (Affects Corporeal, Aura, Sustained Duration)
          • “I am bound here by a power greater than yours…”: Immunity 15
          (banishing and nullifying effects)
          The paralysis makes sense that affects corporeal would not be needed since reading the description it is fear based mental effect.
          Immunity affects yourself so it is irrelevant for this conversation.
          Drain Constitution has affect corporeal because you are affecting the person's body.
          Possession and Illusion are both mental powers, and so were not built with affects corporeal.

          With insubstantial 4 mental and sensory effects don't require affect insubstantial to affect you, so it seems fair that they don't require affects corporeal for you to use on others.

          Ultimately talk to the GM for your game, and get their opinion. Show them the references I've mentioned in making their decision, but in the end it is their game.
          Classic car restoring, gun owning, martial arts practicing, military, gamer geek, kinky lesbian IT chick (has your brain exploded yet?)
          [URL="http://roninarmy.com/threads/1835-Digital-s-Daemons"]My character library[/URL]

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          • #6
            Re: Insubstantial and an Affliction usable only in that form

            Originally posted by digitalangel View Post
            Using the ghost in Book of Magic as a guide, Possession did not need affects corporeal.

            The options they gave for ghosts powers were:



            The paralysis makes sense that affects corporeal would not be needed since reading the description it is fear based mental effect.
            Immunity affects yourself so it is irrelevant for this conversation.
            Drain Constitution has affect corporeal because you are affecting the person's body.
            Possession and Illusion are both mental powers, and so were not built with affects corporeal.

            With insubstantial 4 mental and sensory effects don't require affect insubstantial to affect you, so it seems fair that they don't require affects corporeal for you to use on others.

            Ultimately talk to the GM for your game, and get their opinion. Show them the references I've mentioned in making their decision, but in the end it is their game.
            Thanks for the examples. I'm going to run all this by the GM and see what he says.

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            • #7
              Re: Insubstantial and an Affliction usable only in that form

              Originally posted by digitalangel View Post
              With insubstantial 4 mental and sensory effects don't require affect insubstantial to affect you, so it seems fair that they don't require affects corporeal for you to use on others.
              Indeed, it even says so in the Heroes Handbook. Well, okay, it only explicitly mentions sensory effects; but mental effects are sensory effects.
              Originally posted by Heros Handbook
              RANK 4 - INCORPOREAL

              You become an incorporeal phantom. You can pass through solid matter at your normal speed and you have Immunity to Physical and Energy Damage. Sensory effects (other than tactile) and those targeting Will still work on you, as do effects with the Affects Insubstantial modifier. Choose one other reasonably common effect or descriptor that works on you while you are incorporeal. You have no effective Strength and cannot affect the physical world, except with effects with the Affects Corporeal modifier. Your sensory effects work normally.

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              • #8
                Re: Insubstantial and an Affliction usable only in that form

                Many mental effects are sensory. But, do you have a source for a mental Affliction being sensory? Afflictions and Damage (e.g., a Mental Blast) are Attacks, so they would need Affects Incorporeal, I imagine.

                Rank 4 Insubstantial does say that effects targeting Will still work normally on you, and that you cannot affect the physical world without the Affects Corporeal modifier. So, you might be good with mental effects targeting Will. It's a little murkier than I'd like, but this is an issue common to 3E.

                For what it's worth, the official Deadman build, which you should take with a grain of salt, does have Affects Corporeal on his Possession power.

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                • #9
                  Re: Insubstantial and an Affliction usable only in that form

                  Originally posted by Unbeliever View Post
                  Many mental effects are sensory. But, do you have a source for a mental Affliction being sensory? Afflictions and Damage (e.g., a Mental Blast) are Attacks, so they would need Affects Incorporeal, I imagine.

                  Rank 4 Insubstantial does say that effects targeting Will still work normally on you, and that you cannot affect the physical world without the Affects Corporeal modifier. So, you might be good with mental effects targeting Will. It's a little murkier than I'd like, but this is an issue common to 3E.

                  For what it's worth, the official Deadman build, which you should take with a grain of salt, does have Affects Corporeal on his Possession power.
                  That last sentence about the Deadman build may have answered my question. I'm waiting on my GM to respond. I'm having him look over this thread so he can see both sides of the debate.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Insubstantial and an Affliction usable only in that form

                    Originally posted by Evil_Genius_Prime View Post
                    Basically he is an undead individual who can take on multiple forms. One of his forms is indeed a Ghost Form. The affliction power is essentially Possession from page 129 of Power Profiles.
                    The description of Insubstantial said that "sensory affects and those targeting Will" work on corporeal beings normally. So as long as your Possession is resisted by Will, you're fine.
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                    • #11
                      Re: Insubstantial and an Affliction usable only in that form

                      Originally posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
                      The description of Insubstantial said that "sensory affects and those targeting Will" work on corporeal beings normally. So as long as your Possession is resisted by Will, you're fine.
                      But, that's not what it says. As Greyman helpfully quoted above (and I'm assuming the quote is correct and not double checking), Sensory effects and those targeting Will work normally on you. It does not say that your effects that target Will work on others normally. The only thing it says to this effect is the last sentence, which relates to Sensory effects.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Insubstantial and an Affliction usable only in that form

                        Originally posted by Unbeliever View Post
                        But, that's not what it says. As Greyman helpfully quoted above (and I'm assuming the quote is correct and not double checking), Sensory effects and those targeting Will work normally on you. It does not say that your effects that target Will work on others normally. The only thing it says to this effect is the last sentence, which relates to Sensory effects.
                        Oh hell. I've been misreading that all this time. My bad.
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