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Alternate Effects with long durations.

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  • Alternate Effects with long durations.

    So let's say I have a character with magic. They have two spells, one being a fireball and the other being to give people the ability to fly for a while. Can they give a friend the ability to fly and still fire off fireballs the next round? If they just keep throwing fireballs, will the spell granted ability to fly still be continuing?

  • #2
    Re: Alternate Effects with long durations.

    Ostensibly you could make the Duration Continuous and that would allow you to end the effect when you chose to, but many GMs really hate this idea and look to the rules for how AE's work where it says that when you switch array slots, the effect ends. It's in direct conflict for the text on how Continuous is defined.

    Some GM's make exceptions for the Create effect, e.g. Continuous Create defined as ice, or Spider-Man's webbing, etc.

    Giving effects to other players does affect the point economy, mind you, and when it comes to other effects, e.g. Toughness they are still governed by PL.
    Penny's Build Party - Playable builds - M&M 2.5 featuring Damage Roll combat

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    • #3
      Re: Alternate Effects with long durations.

      Another way to do this is make it in a dynamic array. So for example,

      Fireball Damage 10 (E: Increased Range) [20 cost, 21 PP]
      . . . . . Mass Flight Flight 5 (E: Affects Others) [15 cost, 2 PP]

      This would allow you to give your friends some flight, but make your fireball weaker based on the total number of allotted points.

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      • #4
        Re: Alternate Effects with long durations.

        Affects Others, without the benefit of Area, would require you to touch each character as a Standard action to share the effect.
        Penny's Build Party - Playable builds - M&M 2.5 featuring Damage Roll combat

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        • #5
          Re: Alternate Effects with long durations.

          Originally posted by badpenny View Post
          Ostensibly you could make the Duration Continuous and that would allow you to end the effect when you chose to, but many GMs really hate this idea and look to the rules for how AE's work where it says that when you switch array slots, the effect ends. It's in direct conflict for the text on how Continuous is defined.

          Some GM's make exceptions for the Create effect, e.g. Continuous Create defined as ice, or Spider-Man's webbing, etc.

          Giving effects to other players does affect the point economy, mind you, and when it comes to other effects, e.g. Toughness they are still governed by PL.
          So it might be workable to say that effects will remain on a case by case basis? Allow a wall of ice to stay but not covering someone in living armor? Maybe it could be defined as static creation versus dynamic creation. Making goop to trap people will last, but enhancing the minds of everyone present to be immune to mind control would require concentration.

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          • #6
            Re: Alternate Effects with long durations.

            The goop is probably an Affliction, which is already taken care of. I tend to err on the side of permissive, in part b/c I can appreciate not wanting to muck around with Dynamic Arrays. But, basically if it seems a little too good or a little too broken, just say no. The example that springs to mind as a common one is one that was mentioned in this thread already: Create. It's hard to see how that will break the game too much.

            The Flight example in the OP is the sort of thing that I wouldn't put in the array at all. If I were really making a Wizard type character -- something I shy away from b/c I play a bunch of D&D -- I'd probably have to either go Dynamic or have 2 separate Arrays, one for Buffing, etc. and one for Blasting, etc.

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            • #7
              Re: Alternate Effects with long durations.

              I think most things in M&M is on a case by case basis! LOL

              I certainly draw distinctions between using Create to shore up a building (and letting it last), than making a Continuous Create "capture bubble" that recreates itself if not destroyed, perhaps trapping the victim indefinitely. The former is heroic, while the second strikes me as that kind of "I have to win" mentality I don't like gaming with.

              IMO, look to other ways to help out your teammates: the Aid action (especially with the Teamwork Advantage), and the Inspire Advantage both give bonuses to teammates. Aid can be used repeatedly, while Inspire is once per scene and requires an HP but is broader in scope than Aid maneuver. I use the Aid action all the time for my helper characters, e.g. an archer giving covering fire to his teammate to increase their Defense.

              Flight wouldn't be that disruptive. Granting Immunity would be (IMO)--better to require someone to invest in Inspire 5 and wait for that big scene to give everyone that big bonus to all their checks. Having to use an HP requires players to make choices, which is more dramatic rather than having a ready made array slot or power stunting at the expense of inconsequential Fatigue.
              Penny's Build Party - Playable builds - M&M 2.5 featuring Damage Roll combat

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              • #8
                Re: Alternate Effects with long durations.

                Originally posted by badpenny View Post
                I think most things in M&M is on a case by case basis! LOL

                I certainly draw distinctions between using Create to shore up a building (and letting it last), than making a Continuous Create "capture bubble" that recreates itself if not destroyed, perhaps trapping the victim indefinitely. The former is heroic, while the second strikes me as that kind of "I have to win" mentality I don't like gaming with.

                IMO, look to other ways to help out your teammates: the Aid action (especially with the Teamwork Advantage), and the Inspire Advantage both give bonuses to teammates. Aid can be used repeatedly, while Inspire is once per scene and requires an HP but is broader in scope than Aid maneuver. I use the Aid action all the time for my helper characters, e.g. an archer giving covering fire to his teammate to increase their Defense.

                Flight wouldn't be that disruptive. Granting Immunity would be (IMO)--better to require someone to invest in Inspire 5 and wait for that big scene to give everyone that big bonus to all their checks. Having to use an HP requires players to make choices, which is more dramatic rather than having a ready made array slot or power stunting at the expense of inconsequential Fatigue.
                This just made me think about building advantages as abilities/spells so they can have modifiers applied to them, allowing them to potentially be pretty useful and fairly cheap. We're still working on learning the specifics of the system, so this can be an easy way to showing how they can have one main magical ability but also have an affordable way to have multiple effects going. I can think of a lot more possibilities in magic-based character builds now. I can see someone having a cheap spell that's described as increasing the strength and quickness of a friend, when actually it's Improved Critical with the right modifiers so it's usable on others and also very cheap. Or even using close attack to say they're boosting someone's reaction time. There's actually a lot of advantages that can be described as a result of magical buffs like you'd see in other games.

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                • #9
                  Re: Alternate Effects with long durations.

                  I think it's true across most genres, at least IMO. Some of the effects and modifiers in the game use names that lead you to think about its use in narrower terms than is necessary. Take the two weapons proposition: just because visually you have two weapons doesn't mean in game terms that it has to be built that way.

                  As a general rule, work backwards from the effect that you want and dispense with what you're thinking visually (that's a trap). So what does wielding two swords/guns/etc do? More damage. Attack more targets, etc. More damage might be as simple as Power Attacking. Now, a lot of players won't want that because as your effect goes up, your accuracy goes down, but remember, your attack bonus isn't as useful in this system as it is perhaps in others. All you have to do is hit--the degree by which you hit is immaterial. Hitting additional targets might be an area attack, but maybe it's only minions that get taken out, and all you need is Takedown (2). Think about Captain America and the multiple targets he takes out with his shield--always minions, and you don't have to build a complicated Selective Area attack that will give many GMs pause.

                  I try to look for the simplest way to achieve the effect and personally, don't go in for a laundry list of alternate effects. I only choose the most key effects I feel the character needs and leave the rest to stunts as I find that more dramatic. I would get bored if playing Spider-Man and every thing he could do with his webs was always accessible in some massive array--though, mind you, plenty of PCs are built that way. It's a choice. Some players get panicky if they don't have an answer for every situation--and that tells me something about their playing style.
                  Penny's Build Party - Playable builds - M&M 2.5 featuring Damage Roll combat

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                  • #10
                    Re: Alternate Effects with long durations.

                    I find that a level of 2 of the Improvisation Advantage (from the Luck Power Profile, I think? It used to be in the 2E Book of Magic) and a prestatted out handful of power stunts gives me all the flexibility and creativity I might want without having a gigantic array. I played an energy manipulator with that, and it worked out well, and mostly just as a player, it gave me the freedom to not worry about building in stuff that I thought the character "should" do.

                    I might caution against using M&M for such a fantasy game the first time out. It's ideas and conventions are really quite different from the usual fantasy fare like D&D, et al.

                    For instance, buffing isn't really a thing in M&M. Yet, most of your posts mention some form of buffing. It's not that buffing is inherent in the fantasy genre -- Conan, Fafhrd, and Corwyn rarely "charge up" before a fight -- but if you're coming from that place you might end up with some wonkiness when it comes to M&M characters. The short version would be that you'll be going out of your way a lot to circumvent PL caps. I don't view this as a terrible thing overall, but if you're doing it a ton it might skew things.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Alternate Effects with long durations.

                      In 2E there was a Flaw that you could apply to a Continuous Power called Fades where it dropped in effectiveness by 1pp every round so a Flight 5, Affect Others, Area Burst, Continuous, Fades would last 20 rounds, dropping one rank of Flight every 4 rounds. An extra, Total Fade, would let it stay the full 5 ranks for the entire length of time (25 rounds with that additional extra). Slow Fade was a flat +1 feat that multiplied the times by 5.

                      Applying those to the powers within a spell array should get the desired effect.

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