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  • Building a PL10 Saiyan

    For those of you familiar with the Dragon Ball Series, I have a Player wanting to build a Backup character who is an analog of a Saiyan. The Specific abilities he said he wanted Were~~
    • Kaioken x2
    • Kaioken x5
    • Super Saiyan


    These abilities are the issue since he want's them all as Alternate effects of one another which is easy enough, But the problem is building him so he is Effectively a PL10 throughout just a More optimized version each level.

    I was thinking
    • Kaioken x2- (Enhanced Traits: Strength +1, Close Attack +1, Speed +2, Toughness -2, Dodge +2, Parry +2; Improved Critical +1; Feature 2: All Ranged Ki Based Attacks get a +2 Circumstance bonus to either To-Hit Bonus or Damage; Limited: Can only Sustain for 5 Rounds, After take the Fatigued Condition)
    • Kaioken x5- (Enhanced Traits: Strength +3, Close Atttack +2, Speed +5, Toughness -4, Dodge +4, Parry +4; Improved Critical +4; Feature 4: A; Ranged Ki Based Attacks get a +5 Circumstance Bonus to Either To-hit or Damage; Limited: Can only Sustain for 2 Rounds, After Take the Exhausted Condition)
    • Super Saiyan(Enhanced Traits: Strength+4, Close Attack +3, Speed + 5, Toughness +3, Dodge/Parry -3, Power Attack, Die Hard, Fearless,Defensive Attack, Ultimate Effort: Sustaining Super Form; Limited: Must Make a Form Sustaining Check DC:12)


    I was thinking something like this So each form can have it's strengths and weaknesses, and his Base form doesn't need to be Under PL per say.

    Kaioken would build upon each other and would each offer sustainable forms for an extended time and would allow for things that are both Easily manageable for the player, and Super saiyan wouldn't break his PL, and would make him have to sustain it with a DC 12 Check, I'm not sure what I would make it be with Maybe his Will? and raise the DC? or His Stamina? Any idea's guys. allowing for him to have a Good PL10 without the forms and an even better more optimized character while using the Forms.

    His Base stats btw are
    STR:6
    STM:7
    AGI:4
    DEX:5
    FGT:7
    INT:1
    AWE:2
    PRE:2

    Dodge:10
    Parry:10
    Fort:9
    Toughness:10
    Will: 5
    Last edited by Tommiec21; 06-15-2016, 09:56 AM.

  • #2
    Re: Building a PL10 Saiyan

    Well first you should check how far bellow pl you guy is willing to go normally. 1 PL is a giant difference but at 2 or more than he'll struggle to keep up without constant use, not good for a game changing ultimate form like SSJ.

    The best bet is a group of advantages that can adjust damage calcs but not PL, such as Multi-attack, Extraordinary Effort, improved crit, Impervious, and Regen.
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    • #3
      Re: Building a PL10 Saiyan

      Originally posted by Squirrelly-sama View Post
      Well first you should check how far bellow pl you guy is willing to go normally. 1 PL is a giant difference but at 2 or more than he'll struggle to keep up without constant use, not good for a game changing ultimate form like SSJ.

      The best bet is a group of advantages that can adjust damage calcs but not PL, such as Multi-attack, Extraordinary Effort, improved crit, Impervious, and Regen.
      Well he's fighting at PL without the alternate forms honestly, the Forms actually just optimize him. His most damaging Attack is his Ki blasts which a is a Dmg 10 with a +10 to hit, and his Unarmed is a Dmg 6 with a + 7 to hit and as he powers up his Unarmed combat stats get better (both Str and Unarmed), He also has Circumstance bonuses to his Ki blasts that work for either accuracy or Damage with them.

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      • #4
        Re: Building a PL10 Saiyan

        Originally posted by Tommiec21 View Post
        Well he's fighting at PL without the alternate forms honestly, the Forms actually just optimize him. His most damaging Attack is his Ki blasts which a is a Dmg 10 with a +10 to hit, and his Unarmed is a Dmg 6 with a + 7 to hit and as he powers up his Unarmed combat stats get better (both Str and Unarmed), He also has Circumstance bonuses to his Ki blasts that work for either accuracy or Damage with them.
        So he hits caps on his beam then but is under capped in melee. Your features can't be used, not only is it under-spending on the bonus it grants but it also breaks caps.

        Here's a generic template I drew up for a generic Super Saiyan
        Generic Super Saiyan - PL 10

        Strength 6, Stamina 10, Agility 4, Dexterity 0, Fighting 4, Intellect 0, Awareness 4, Presence 0

        Advantages
        All-out Attack, Diehard, Extraordinary Effort, Improved Critical 2: Unarmed, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Seize Initiative

        Skills
        Athletics 2 (+8), Close Combat: Unarmed 2 (+6)

        Powers
        Bukujutsu: Flight 6 (Speed: 120 miles/hour, 1800 feet/round)
        I'm Going Super Saiyan! (Activation: Standard Action, Advantages: Extraordinary Effort, Improved Critical 2, Seize Initiative)
        . . Impervious Defense: Impervious Toughness 10
        . . Rapid Fire Fisticuffs (Multiattack)
        Kai-Oh-What?: Variable 3 (Action: move; Limited 2: Increasing Physical Abilities, Tiring [1 rank only])
        Ki-blast: Damage 6 (DC 21; Accurate 5: +10, Increased Range: ranged)
        Natural Born Warrior: Strength-based Damage 4 (DC 25)

        Offense
        Initiative +8
        Grab, +4 (DC Spec 16)
        Ki-blast: Damage 6, +10 (DC 21)
        Natural Born Warrior: Strength-based Damage 4, +4 (DC 25)
        Throw, +0 (DC 21)
        Unarmed, +4 (DC 21)

        Languages
        Native Language

        Defense
        Dodge 6, Parry 6, Fortitude 10, Toughness 10, Will 6

        Power Points
        Abilities 56 + Powers 72 + Advantages 4 + Skills 2 (4 ranks) + Defenses 6 = 140

        Validation: Complications: At least 2 Complications are required


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        • #5
          Re: Building a PL10 Saiyan

          Originally posted by Squirrelly-sama View Post
          So he hits caps on his beam then but is under capped in melee. Your features can't be used, not only is it under-spending on the bonus it grants but it also breaks caps.

          Here's a generic template I drew up for a generic Super Saiyan
          Generic Super Saiyan - PL 10

          Strength 6, Stamina 10, Agility 4, Dexterity 0, Fighting 4, Intellect 0, Awareness 4, Presence 0

          Advantages
          All-out Attack, Diehard, Extraordinary Effort, Improved Critical 2: Unarmed, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Seize Initiative

          Skills
          Athletics 2 (+8), Close Combat: Unarmed 2 (+6)

          Powers
          Bukujutsu: Flight 6 (Speed: 120 miles/hour, 1800 feet/round)
          I'm Going Super Saiyan! (Activation: Standard Action, Advantages: Extraordinary Effort, Improved Critical 2, Seize Initiative)
          . . Impervious Defense: Impervious Toughness 10
          . . Rapid Fire Fisticuffs (Multiattack)
          Kai-Oh-What?: Variable 3 (Action: move; Limited 2: Increasing Physical Abilities, Tiring [1 rank only])
          Ki-blast: Damage 6 (DC 21; Accurate 5: +10, Increased Range: ranged)
          Natural Born Warrior: Strength-based Damage 4 (DC 25)

          Offense
          Initiative +8
          Grab, +4 (DC Spec 16)
          Ki-blast: Damage 6, +10 (DC 21)
          Natural Born Warrior: Strength-based Damage 4, +4 (DC 25)
          Throw, +0 (DC 21)
          Unarmed, +4 (DC 21)

          Languages
          Native Language

          Defense
          Dodge 6, Parry 6, Fortitude 10, Toughness 10, Will 6

          Power Points
          Abilities 56 + Powers 72 + Advantages 4 + Skills 2 (4 ranks) + Defenses 6 = 140

          Validation: Complications: At least 2 Complications are required


          Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
          Mutants & Masterminds, Third Edition is ©2010-2015 Green Ronin Publishing, LLC. All rights reserved.
          My reasoning for the Features as circumstance bonuses instead of straight buffs was because he would ONLY be able to utilize them while in his alternate forms, Using Variable to buff him is an idea, but then he would be holding up the group while switching in and out stats and such. Having a lower Dodge and Parry isn't reallllly that great which is why I had him balanced at first but then get better at some things and worse at others, the Kaioken actually puts stress on the user due to the strain which is why there is a Timer on it as well as the tiring effect.

          But i do like your build although I don't see how he could hold his own WITHOUT having to use the forms. His forms is essentially his trump cards while he doesn't need them they are there for him to use for both epic and dramatic purposes.

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          • #6
            Re: Building a PL10 Saiyan

            Even if it's only in the forms it doesn't work, it's still just an enhanced effect. It's not actually a limit on the effect to be only during your transformed state. He's PL 8 and has untiring access to a rank of Kaiohken which is about a boost of 1.5 PL. Since you can only adjust physical ability scores it won't clog up time, and at a move action it doesn't eat up your actions. There's another 10 points to spend to personalize and boost stats if you want.
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            • #7
              Re: Building a PL10 Saiyan

              "Powering Up" is a concept that has been desired for a long time (by some players) in M&M. Unfortunately, the way the game is designed there's just no good legal way to do it.

              First, one point to address right off... it's not just optimization going on here, from what I'm seeing. You're actually altering caps; the base form is just under PL 7 in terms of close combat offense. Which is fine, if the player is happy with that, but you should recognize this and alert him to it so no one is surprised at his lackluster performance whenever he isn't powered up (unless he only ever throws ki blasts.) You run the risk of a disappointing and/or frustrating game experience with this build, especially if you're restricting how long he can stay boosted with checks and flat limitations (and then punishing afterwards with Fatigue conditions.)

              All that said, to actually answer your request, if the player is set on this, I would offer three possible solutions:

              (1) There are various possibly-munchkin-like approaches you can take to maintain your caps when depowered, and still be objectively stronger when powered up. But then you'll run the risk of the other players wanting to do the same thing, at which point it's effectively no longer a PL 10 game. Or worse, the other players won't use any "power hacks," and he could easily wind up stealing the spotlight every battle.

              If you are OK with all this, then build his depowered form as a normal PL 10 character, and use one or more of the following "tips" for his powered forms:
              • Bump up the accuracy of the ki blasts and lower the damage; then apply Multiattack and/or multiple ranks of Improved Critical when powered up.
              • Alternatively, bump up the damage of the ki blasts and lower the accuracy; apply multiple ranks of Homing when powered up.
              • Give him Limited Concealment (all senses) when powered up, to illustrate moving so quickly as to only leave afterimages.
              • Give full ranks of Impervious when powered up (only really significant when using 2ed rules for Impervious.)
              • Link a Weaken Toughness effect to his Strength when powered up (works best when close combat offense is damage-shifted.)
              • Give him a Reaction Burst Area Weaken <Parry> or Weaken <Close Attack> (or both) resisted by Will when powered up, reflecting increased speed.
              • Similarly, give him a Reaction Perception Area Weaken <Ranged Attack> resisted by Will when powered up.
              • Give him Regeneration 5 when powered up to reflect him not really taking as much damage as it appears when hit.

              Again, using these (some more than others) may result in player envy, game imbalance or other various difficulties.


              (2) Just tell the player that he's going to have to be undercapped when not in one of his powered forms, and that's that. In this case, I would strongly recommend just building his strongest form as a normal PL 10 character, and then building the lesser forms as alternates that occur via a Power Loss Complication (Not in One-on-One Combat, Not Angry Enough, etc.)

              I'd also be generous with the power points when he wants/needs to be powered up but can't be. And you still shouldn't be surprised if he never uses any of the lesser forms if you go this route. (In fact, I'd recommend trying to get him to drop the lesser ones.)


              (3) One approach I've thought up but not tried as a GM yet is to build the unpowered form as a PL 8, but let him be PL 12 in his powered form, with a 5-round limit (essentially the Unreliable flaw.) Build the hero as a 150pp, PL 12 character, then build his PL 8 form by reducing (not moving!) traits. No hero points when he needs to be powered up but can't, although spending a hero point may buy another 5 rounds at GM discretion.

              Remember, this is untested; YMMV.
              My builds can be found in the Roll Call forum [url=http://roninarmy.com/threads/1719-Rush-s-Characters-(new-Mr-Smooth)?p=68608&viewfull=1#post68608]here[/url]. And, here's the latest version of [url=https://roninarmy.com/threads/1719-Rush-s-Characters-(new-Edge)?p=256421&viewfull=1#post256421]The Cast[/url].
              Currently playing in: [url=https://roninarmy.com/threads/6868-Xenoforce-Earth-s-Strangest-Heroes-Recruiting-2-more-players][color=#d7af50]Xenoforce: Earth's Strangest Heroes[/color][/url].

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              • #8
                Re: Building a PL10 Saiyan

                Readjusted the Generic template. Don't think it's too unfair or broken. Point cost decreased and at PL9 (PL 8 Ki Blast) un-enhanced and costs 135 with 15 points to customize. Made Super Saiyan bonuses fading and Kaioken is reduced to make points to up unenhanced stats.

                Generic Super Saiyan - PL 10

                Strength 6, Stamina 10, Agility 6, Dexterity 0, Fighting 8, Intellect 0, Awareness 2, Presence 0

                Advantages
                All-out Attack, Diehard, Extraordinary Effort, Improved Critical 2: Unarmed, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Seize Initiative

                Powers
                Bukujutsu: Flight 6 (Speed: 120 miles/hour, 1800 feet/round)
                I'm Going Super Saiyan! (Activation: Standard Action, Advantages: Extraordinary Effort, Improved Critical 2, Seize Initiative)
                . . Impervious Defense: Impervious Toughness 10 (Fades)
                . . Rapid-fire Fisticuffs (Multiattack; Quirk 5: Fading Multi-attack)
                Kai-Oh-What?: Variable 2 (Action 2: free; Limited: Enhancing existing abilities, Unreliable (5 uses))
                Ki-blast: Damage 6 (DC 21; Accurate 5: +10, Increased Range: ranged)
                Natural Born Warrior: Strength-based Damage 4 (DC 25)

                Offense
                Initiative +10
                Grab, +8 (DC Spec 16)
                Ki-blast: Damage 6, +10 (DC 21)
                Natural Born Warrior: Strength-based Damage 4, +8 (DC 25)
                Throw, +0 (DC 21)
                Unarmed, +8 (DC 21)

                Languages
                Native Language

                Defense
                Dodge 8, Parry 8, Fortitude 10, Toughness 10, Will 8

                Power Points
                Abilities 64 + Powers 59 + Advantages 4 + Skills 0 (0 ranks) + Defenses 8 = 135

                Validation: Complications: At least 2 Complications are required


                Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
                Mutants & Masterminds, Third Edition is ©2010-2015 Green Ronin Publishing, LLC. All rights reserved.
                Last edited by Squirrelly-sama; 06-15-2016, 01:40 PM.
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                • #9
                  Re: Building a PL10 Saiyan

                  Here's the Saiyans I use in our games.


                  Saiyan Warriors

                  SAIYAN WARRIOR (ELITE) PL 10
                  Abilities: Str 8, Sta 9, Agl 2, Dex 0, Fig 8, Int 1, Awe 2, Pre 0
                  Defense: Toughness 9, Dodge 10, Parry 11, Fortitude 9, Will 8
                  Offense: Initiative +2; Energy Blast +8 (Ranged, Damage 12), Unarmed +12 (Close, Damage 8, Crit. 18-20)
                  Advantages: Agile Feint, All-Out Attack, Diehard, Equipment 2, Improved Critical 2 (Unarmed), Improved Grab, Improved Hold, Improved Smash, Instant Up, Power Attack, Startle, Takedown 2, Uncanny Dodge
                  Equipment: Scouter (10 points)
                  Skills: Acrobatics 2 (+4), Athletics 2 (+10), Close Combat: Unarmed 4 (+12), Intimidation 8 (+8), Insight 6 (+8), Ranged Combat: Energy Control 8 (+8), Technology 2 (+3)
                  Powers:
                  Energy Control: Array (30 points) • 30 points
                  • Bukujutsu: Flight 5, Dynamic • 1 point
                  • Energy Blast: Ranged Damage 12, Dynamic • 2 points
                  • Light Body: Leaping 5, Speed 5, Dynamic • 2 points
                  Great Ape Form: Morph 1 (Giant Ape), Metamorph, Limited (only when exposed to a full moon) • 3 points
                  Heightened Senses: Senses 2 (Low-Light Vision, Scent) • 2 points
                  Tail: Extra Limb 1 • 1 point

                  Giant Ape Form
                  Abilities: Str 14, Sta 14, Agl 2, Dex 0, Fig 6, Int 1, Awe 2, Pre 0
                  Defense: Toughness 17 (Impervious 14), Dodge 3, Parry 3, Fortitude 14, Will 6
                  Offense: Initiative +2; Mouth Blast +6 (Ranged, Damage 14, Multiattack), Thrown +6 (Ranged, Damage 14), Unarmed +6 (Close, Damage 14)
                  Advantages: Diehard, Great Endurance, Ranged Attack 6
                  Skills: Intimidation 8 (+14), Stealth 0 (-12)
                  Powers:
                  Giant Ape: Growth 12 (Str +12, Sta +12, Intimidation +6, Speed +1, Stealth -12, Dodge/Parry -6, size rank 1), Continuous, Permanent • 24 points
                  Energy Control: Array (42 points)
                  • Mouth Blast: Ranged Damage 14, Multiattack • 42 points
                  Great Ape Form: Morph 1 (Giant Ape), Metamorph, Limited (only when exposed to a full moon) • 3 points
                  Heightened Senses: Senses 2 (Low-Light Vision, Scent) • 2 points
                  Invulnerability: Impervious Toughness 14, Protection 3 • 17 points
                  Raging Beast: Immunity 10 (mind-affecting powers), Limited to Half-Effect • 5 points
                  Tail: Extra Limb 1 • 1 point

                  Abilities 30 + Defenses 14 + Skills 4 (8 ranks) + Advantages 8 + Powers 94 = 150 points
                  Complications:
                  Power Loss (Great Ape Form): A Saiyan will lose his great ape form if his tail is cut off.
                  Reputation: Saiyans are feared and hated throughout the Galaxy as an extremely belligerent race.
                  Weakness (Tail): When a Saiyan’s tail is grabbed (by a grab attack or even a power) he loses much of his strength, becoming disabled in Strength, Agility, Dexterity and all ki-based Powers and traits.
                  Abilities 60 + Defenses 17 + Skills 16 (32 ranks) + Advantages 16 + Powers 41 = 150 points
                  Have fun
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                  • #10
                    Re: Building a PL10 Saiyan

                    Originally posted by Icarus View Post
                    Here's the Saiyans I use in our games.


                    Saiyan Warriors



                    Have fun
                    Actually....Looking at this...This is a Far better Base (Although I may remove great ape and Add in Variable with Limited to 3 Skill Variations, To imitate KaioKen/Super Saiyan)

                    This looks Extremely Solid honestly....

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                    • #11
                      Re: Building a PL10 Saiyan

                      Originally posted by Tommiec21 View Post
                      Actually....Looking at this...This is a Far better Base (Although I may remove great ape and Add in Variable with Limited to 3 Skill Variations, To imitate KaioKen/Super Saiyan)

                      This looks Extremely Solid honestly....
                      Thanks, man.

                      Oh, I realized you asked for SSJ/Kaiyo-Ken stuff... I really only had the base archetype. I opened my old DBZ/M&M stuff and found this, hope they're useful for you somehow.

                      Alternate Form (Super Saiyan): Activation (Standard Action, -2 points), Enhanced Abilities 8 (Str +4, Sta +4), Enhanced Array (Ki Powers) 12 • 26 points
                      Alternate Form (Super Saiyan 2): Stacks with Super Saiyan; Activation (Standard Action, -2 points), Enhanced Abilities 4 (Agl +2, Fgt +2), Enhanced Array (Ki Powers) 6 • 12 points
                      Complication: This form fuels the aggressive, remorseless behavior of the initial transformation in Super Saiyan; any control over emotion brought on by increased proficiency of the Super Saiyan transformation is canceled out.
                      Alternate Form (Super Saiyan 3): Stacks with Super Saiyan 1 and Super Saiyan 2; Activation (Standard Action, -2 points), Enhanced Abilities 8 (Str +2, Sta +2, Dex +2, Awe +2), Enhanced Array (Ki Powers) 12 • 26 points
                      Complication: This form consumes an ungodly amount of energy, leading to prolonged periods of exhaustion even after powering down.
                      2nd Grade Super Saiyan: Stacks with Super Saiyan; Activation (Standard, -2 points), Enhanced Abilities 4 (Str +2, Sta +2), Enhanced Array (Ki Powers) 4, Impervious Toughness 4, Quirk: Reduced Dodge 2 (-2 points), Quirk: Reduced Parry 2 (-2 points), Quirk: Reduced Close Attack 2 (-2 points), Quirk: Reduced Will 2 (-2 points) • 6 points
                      Note: Can add ranks in Impervious Toughness, increasing total point cost.
                      Complications: This form fuels the aggressive, remorseless behavior of the initial transformation in Super Saiyan; any control over emotion brought on by increased proficiency of the Super Saiyan transformation is canceled out, and energy requirement to sustain the state becomes enormous when compared to the regular Super Saiyan state, thus reducing its effectiveness. At the GM’s discretion, this may lead to a impaired and eventually disabled Ki Powers array and force a return to base form. (This deficiency eventually forced Goku, and in turn, Vegeta and Trunks, to discard the form.)
                      3rd Grade Super Saiyan: Stacks with Super Saiyan; Activation (Standard, -2 points), Enhanced Abilities 8 (Str +4, Sta +4), Enhanced Array (Ki Powers) 4, Impervious Toughness 4, Quirk: Reduced Dodge 4 (-4 points), Quirk: Reduced Parry 4 (-4 points), Quirk: Reduced Close Attack 4 (-4 points), Quirk: Reduced Will 4 (-4 points) • 6 points (Can be acquired as an Alternate Effect of the 2nd Grade Super Saiyan Power; does not stack with 2nd Grade Super Saiyan.)
                      Note: Can add ranks in Impervious Toughness and Enhanced Strength, Limited to Lifting, increasing total point cost.
                      Complication: In addition to the rapid energy consumption of the 2nd Grade Super Saiyan, due to the overblown muscle mass, the brute force benefit in this form is offset by a gross decrease in speed, to the point that the character may lose every attempt to resist feints and similar maneuvers (gaining a Hero Point, as usual), or the inability to gain benefits from maneuvers like accurate attack or defensive attack. At GM’s discretion, this complication may manifest in other ways.


                      I don't have Kaiyo-Ken ideas 'cause I've never used it in our games here.
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