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  • Reflect (Deflect) question

    I'm assuming that to Reflect an attack you need a Ranged Attack skill? In all these years this is the first time it's come up for me, and I'm in one of those moments where I find myself just staring at the text trying to figure this out.

    My player has the following effect off their sword (think Jedi-like ability):

    Deflect 10 (Extra: Reflect; Flaw: Close)

    The character doesn't have any Ranged Attack because they're all about the up-close-and-personal stabbiness. Close Deflect makes sense to me because it simply allows you to use the Defend maneuver for others. He can stand in front of the bystanders and bat the attacks away. But when it comes to Reflecting attacks back at the opponent, the text says,

    ...then make a normal attack check using your own attack modifier to hit with the reflected attack.
    What's throwing me off is "your own attack modifier." The player's thinking Close Attack. I'm leaning toward Ranged Attack, because, well, he's making a ranged attack.... Close Attack works for the player because he won't have to tinker with his sheet to afford the new expense. I'd love to be lenient, but getting the ability to attack at range seems like you should pay for it.

    Thoughts?
    Penny's Build Party - Playable builds - M&M 2.5 featuring Damage Roll combat

  • #2
    Re: Reflect (Deflect) question

    I tend toward using the characters unmodified basic attack-bonus. As the reflect may call for a ranged or a close attack roll (deflect and refect work on both attack types), defining a specialised skill that would encompass both could be complicated.

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    • #3
      Re: Reflect (Deflect) question

      Originally posted by badpenny View Post
      I'm assuming that to Reflect an attack you need a Ranged Attack skill? In all these years this is the first time it's come up for me, and I'm in one of those moments where I find myself just staring at the text trying to figure this out.

      My player has the following effect off their sword (think Jedi-like ability):

      Deflect 10 (Extra: Reflect; Flaw: Close)

      The character doesn't have any Ranged Attack because they're all about the up-close-and-personal stabbiness. Close Deflect makes sense to me because it simply allows you to use the Defend maneuver for others. He can stand in front of the bystanders and bat the attacks away. But when it comes to Reflecting attacks back at the opponent, the text says,



      What's throwing me off is "your own attack modifier." The player's thinking Close Attack. I'm leaning toward Ranged Attack, because, well, he's making a ranged attack.... Close Attack works for the player because he won't have to tinker with his sheet to afford the new expense. I'd love to be lenient, but getting the ability to attack at range seems like you should pay for it.

      Thoughts?
      When Using reflect in my Game we usually go with whatever the medium is. Since it's a Sword in this case I would go With the Close attack because it's like him Taking the attack and Essentially Just swinging his weapon at it and Blowing it back.

      it's not really clear but you should rule it however you want to honestly. I say let it be his close attack and maybe Flavor it as his sword absorbing the attack and then infusing the attack with his weapon and him making some Epic Leaping slash back at them before he rolls back to his original spot.

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      • #4
        Re: Reflect (Deflect) question

        You could rule it as being based off reflect ranks instead, keeps it simple. Of course PL applies.
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        • #5
          Re: Reflect (Deflect) question

          Originally posted by Squirrelly-sama View Post
          You could rule it as being based off reflect ranks instead, keeps it simple. Of course PL applies.
          That's a good idea.
          Penny's Build Party - Playable builds - M&M 2.5 featuring Damage Roll combat

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          • #6
            Re: Reflect (Deflect) question

            Just buy Accurate on the Deflect power.

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            • #7
              Re: Reflect (Deflect) question

              To my reading of the Extra, the operative wordinf was that you "make a normal attack check using your own attack modifier to hit with the reflected attack."

              Well, if I was attacking with a Blaster Rifle of my own, I'd be using my Ranged Attack modifiers, yes? If I was attacking with a broadsword of my own, I'd be using my Melee Attack modifers, right?

              Ergo, making a normal attack check using my own to hit modifiers with a reflected blaster rifle or broadsword would use the same modifiers.

              Also, since Deflect is already limited by Power Level (it shares its "cap" with Toughness) I've never felt the need to worry about the power of the Reflected attack...

              As for the OP's player's specific case, I would allow him to buy ranks in Ranged Combat Skill [Limited to Reflected Attacks]. At 4 ranks per Power Point, it's cheap enough that it probably wouldn't drain too much of his PP budget.
              Last edited by Batgirl III; 06-16-2016, 04:52 AM.

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              • #8
                Re: Reflect (Deflect) question

                Originally posted by Batgirl III View Post
                Well, if I was attacking with a Blaster Rifle of my own, I'd be using my Ranged Attack modifiers, yes? If I was attacking with a broadsword of my own, I'd be using my Melee Attack modifers, right?
                That was my initial position.

                Also, since Deflect is already limited by Power Level (it shares its "cap" with Toughness) I've never felt the need to worry about the power of the Reflected attack...
                But Deflect can reflect any ranked attack, regardless of descriptor as long as A) you successful use the Defend maneuver, and B) successfully roll the attack check.

                While I wanted to be lenient with my player, making him pay for Ranged Attack/Ranged Combat/Accurate seems fair given the potency of this effect. Plus, if you add in the Redirect Extra, you could conceivably redirect multiple attacks (say, some minions) to one target and thoroughly ruin their day.

                Edit: RAW says that "Deflect Modifiers are limited by PL", and I had only read that to mean it had to be in line with your Defense/Toughness trade-off, but it could also mean that any attack check would be modified downward by PL caps of attack/effect trade-off. So in a PL 10 game, with an Attack bonus of 10, you'd drop to 8 reflecting a rank 12 effect. Hmm.
                Last edited by badpenny; 06-16-2016, 05:07 AM.
                Penny's Build Party - Playable builds - M&M 2.5 featuring Damage Roll combat

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                • #9
                  Re: Reflect (Deflect) question

                  Originally posted by badpenny View Post
                  Edit: RAW says that "Deflect Modifiers are limited by PL", and I had only read that to mean it had to be in line with your Defense/Toughness trade-off, but it could also mean that any attack check would be modified downward by PL caps of attack/effect trade-off. So in a PL 10 game, with an Attack bonus of 10, you'd drop to 8 reflecting a rank 12 effect. Hmm.
                  The bit about how "Deflect Modifiers are limited by PL", means that Deflect essentially becomes a "third defensive tradeoff," so that heroes will have Parry/Toughness, Dodge/Toughness, and Deflect/Toughness.

                  The RAW are a really unclear as to what to do about Reflect. Modifying the to hit roll downward to make the attack/effect tradeoff come in under the hero's PL is certainly a valid option... But, contrariwise, why not modify the effect rank downwards?

                  Personally, I just chalk the whole thing up to being more or less a "circumstance bonus" and don't worry about the PL cap implications for such an already limited attack. The hero needs to declare his intent to defend, the hero (or an appropriate ally) has to be targeted, the hero has to succeed in his defect check, and then he has to succeed in his attack roll... That's a lot of hoops to jump through compared to just spamming out a Ranged Damage effect!

                  Your table, your ruling. Obviously I'm only sharing my interpretation of the book. As long as you and your players are enjoying yourselves then you're playing the game correctly!

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                  • #10
                    Re: Reflect (Deflect) question

                    Defense and Attack aren't traded off with one another. Attack and effect are, so it seems too easy to buy up a Limited Attack bonus (+4 Attack for 1pp) and be able to Reflect (or hell, even Redirect) a huge incoming effect regularly.

                    I love the Defend maneuver and especially Defending for others, but Reflect kinda irks me for not being better spelled out. If a player has constant access to ranged attacks for little investment (Deflect and the attack bonus are folded into an AE), it's, well, irksome.
                    Penny's Build Party - Playable builds - M&M 2.5 featuring Damage Roll combat

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                    • #11
                      Re: Reflect (Deflect) question

                      I'd base it upon where he is reflecting the attack too. If the villain is right in front of him, I'd use close attack, if they were across the room (or farther than what 3'/1meter) I'd treat it as a ranged attack, Dexterity, Ranged, Ranged Combat Skill, or Accurate all potentially applying.

                      2c

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                      • #12
                        Re: Reflect (Deflect) question

                        I still say its best just to use the reflect rank, makes things simpler, not only in point keeping but in simplifying the numbers for checks.
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