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  • Permanent and alternate effect

    One of my players want to build a water elemental that can switch between liquid and solid form. It makes sense from flavor that one of these power have to be on at all times, but permanet states that it can't be combined with alternate effect. I know I could just house rule it, but is there a way to do this by RAW? I've seen in the supernatural handbook a build that had two permanent effects in an array, but I'm not sure if they paid extra for that (I don't have the book in front of me, but I think the build was called surge)

  • #2
    Re: Permanent and alternate effect

    Buy both effects up to Permanent Duration, put them in an Array, and ask for GM approval to bend the rules. Done.

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    • #3
      Re: Permanent and alternate effect

      I don't know, this sounds like Continuous, not Permanent.
      [HR][/HR][URL="http://roninarmy.com/threads/60-Kenseido-s-Menagerie"]Kenseido's Menagerie of Characters[/URL]

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      • #4
        Re: Permanent and alternate effect

        Originally posted by kenseido View Post
        I don't know, this sounds like Continuous, not Permanent.
        But he can't turn of the one he's got active, so continous isn't right either.

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        • #5
          Re: Permanent and alternate effect

          Because he has the two forms, I would say they have to be Continuous with a Complication that he can't turn off the form he is in. Honestly, I don't know when that would be an actual limitation, but the one or two times a year it does, the player would get an HP.
          [HR][/HR][URL="http://roninarmy.com/threads/60-Kenseido-s-Menagerie"]Kenseido's Menagerie of Characters[/URL]

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          • #6
            Re: Permanent and alternate effect

            You can make Insubstantial (normally Sustained) Permanent and put it and related effects into an Alternate Form. You don't need an array, just build the character normally solid then s/he activates the Alternate Form and turns watery.
            Penny's Build Party - Playable builds - M&M 2.5 featuring Damage Roll combat

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            • #7
              Re: Permanent and alternate effect

              I don't see it that way. Permanent means always on. If you can turn off the power through any means - be it an array or alternate form, then it is not Permanent.

              That being said, I suppose you could use one of the biggest workarounds in the rules and buy a Morph 1 (single form; Continuous, Metamorph) for 7 points and put the "Permanent" powers in each individual form.
              [HR][/HR][URL="http://roninarmy.com/threads/60-Kenseido-s-Menagerie"]Kenseido's Menagerie of Characters[/URL]

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              • #8
                Re: Permanent and alternate effect

                Just like you can make an exception for arraying Permanent Create, I think you can make exceptions for other Permanent effects when they make sense.

                Per the RAW, you can include Protection in the Alternate Form and that's by default Permanent.
                Penny's Build Party - Playable builds - M&M 2.5 featuring Damage Roll combat

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                • #9
                  Re: Permanent and alternate effect

                  Originally posted by badpenny View Post
                  Just like you can make an exception for arraying Permanent Create, I think you can make exceptions for other Permanent effects when they make sense.

                  Per the RAW, you can include Protection in the Alternate Form and that's by default Permanent.
                  to support that statement:

                  Originally posted by Activation Flaw Description RAW
                  Activation and Permanent Effects
                  The Activation flaw does allow permanent effects that are part of a power to be turned off, but only if the power as a whole is deactivated. It does not affect the other aspects of permanent duration, including the inability to improve the effect with extra effort. The GM should decide if allowing a permanent effect to have an Activation is appropriate based on the specific effect and any others it is combined with in the power.
                  Also to be found here.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Permanent and alternate effect

                    You are welcome to make any exception you want. I would not make an exception in this case.

                    As for the Protection "exception," my general ruling is putting a Permanent power inside an Array automatically shifts them to Sustained.
                    [HR][/HR][URL="http://roninarmy.com/threads/60-Kenseido-s-Menagerie"]Kenseido's Menagerie of Characters[/URL]

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                    • #11
                      Re: Permanent and alternate effect

                      It's not an exception when you put Activation on a Permanent effect. Allowing a Permanent effect in an array might be one, but to have an Alternate Form with Permanent powers in it is purely RAW.
                      Penny's Build Party - Playable builds - M&M 2.5 featuring Damage Roll combat

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                      • #12
                        Re: Permanent and alternate effect

                        The GM should decide if allowing a permanent effect to have an Activation is appropriate based on the specific effect and any others it is combined with in the power.
                        And as the quote indicates, purely at the GM's discretion.
                        [HR][/HR][URL="http://roninarmy.com/threads/60-Kenseido-s-Menagerie"]Kenseido's Menagerie of Characters[/URL]

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