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  • Transporting Yourself + Others with Dimensional Movement?

    Noob with a question. The idea: a character that can shift himself, along with others that he touches (even unwilling persons), into another dimension.

    I know that I can use the Attack extra to make Dimensional Movement affect others, and make an alternate power for affecting myself... but how do I dimensionally shift both myself and my opponent at the same time, with the same action?

    I can't just use an Affliction to simulate being transported away, here. They need to actually go to the other dimension, and be able to continue to exist, act, and interact there.

    EDIT: Will Affects Others work, since it says that others can "use my power" simultaneously with me? I assumed Affects Others was for willing, co-operative allies to use.
    Last edited by Abandoned Arts; 06-03-2016, 05:59 AM.

  • #2
    Re: Transporting Yourself + Others with Dimensional Movement?

    Affects Others should work on the unwilling as well. They just get a save to resist going with you.

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    • #3
      Re: Transporting Yourself + Others with Dimensional Movement?

      Originally posted by Shock View Post
      Affects Others should work on the unwilling as well. They just get a save to resist going with you.
      Okay, great; thanks!

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      • #4
        Re: Transporting Yourself + Others with Dimensional Movement?

        I would set it up as being Linked (Super-Movement (Dimensional Movement), Super-Movement (Dimensional Movement - Attack)).
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        • #5
          Re: Transporting Yourself + Others with Dimensional Movement?

          Originally posted by Shock View Post
          Affects Others should work on the unwilling as well. They just get a save to resist going with you.
          Umm, no. Affects Others does GRANT others the ability to use the effect on themselves. If you want to use it on someone unwilling, that's the Attack extra (willing persons can voluntarily forgo their save).
          IMHO Fuzzy is right, I'd also build this power as Dimensional Movement Linked to Dimensional Movement Attack.
          That said, I'd be extremely wary allowing a PC such an attack. Heck, I'd even hesistate giving it to NPCs (as a plot device it's fine though). The reason is its very nature: Fail your save by just a single degree, and you're banished to another dimension - even if the dimension is not directly hostile (the "elemental plane of fire", for example), you're left stranded, since most victims should lack the means of returning under their own power. In short, it's an extremely effective (read: unfair) fight-ender.
          So I'd advise taking the Limited flaw: Either to minions & willing subjects or to "outsiders" (the latter would be just banished back to their home dimension).
          https://roninarmy.com/forum/atomic-think-tank/roll-call/7149-bothrops-pit#post7149

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          • #6
            Re: Transporting Yourself + Others with Dimensional Movement?

            I agree with Bothrops-I've seen Teleport attack be used as a one hit kill too rife for abuse.


            That being said my PC was once the victim of a Dimensional Attack that specifically wiped out his ability to return under his own power (he was a gadgetter and the world he was on burnt out his devices) but it turned into a great mini adventure as he worked to get back just in the nick of time.
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            • #7
              Re: Transporting Yourself + Others with Dimensional Movement?

              The danger of Teleport Attack as a one-hit kill is greatly exaggerated since high movement speeds are common among supers, and heroes typically want to capture villains, not just teleport them away to become somewhere else's problem. I could see Dimensional movement being problematic though.

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              • #8
                Re: Transporting Yourself + Others with Dimensional Movement?

                Originally posted by Bothrops View Post
                . . . The reason is its very nature: Fail your save by just a single degree, and you're banished to another dimension - even if the dimension is not directly hostile (the "elemental plane of fire", for example), you're left stranded, since most victims should lack the means of returning under their own power. In short, it's an extremely effective (read: unfair) fight-ender.
                So I'd advise taking the Limited flaw: Either to minions & willing subjects or to "outsiders" (the latter would be just banished back to their home dimension).
                If you wanted to make a Dimensional Attack power that doesn't have that 1st Degree fight-ender effect, I'd suggest a little custom work and make it an Affliction with a 3rd Degree Condition (Dimension-Jumped). This allows the power to still be completely effective against minions (since they always take the highest condition), but not to be too effective on targets of greater importance like named opponents and villains of near-equal PL to the user.

                I recommend something like this for Teleport and other Movement-based attacks as well. You can have the Affliction Limited to 3rd Degree or choose some 1st & 2nd Degree conditions for partial success as well.
                Last edited by JDRook; 06-07-2016, 10:19 AM.
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                • #9
                  Re: Transporting Yourself + Others with Dimensional Movement?

                  Yes, I've always thought that "Save or Die" powers needed to be staged more or less along the lines of Affliction and the third degree being a fight-ender (on par with Incapacitated).
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                  • #10
                    Re: Transporting Yourself + Others with Dimensional Movement?

                    I disagree with JDRook that Teleport Attack is a one-hit kill along the lines of Dimensional Movement. As previously stated, high movement speeds are common among supers, and Teleport Attack does not instantly remove victims from the fight as long as its rank is not more than 1 higher than typical movement power ranks (the remainder can be Limited to Effect DC). Narratively, teleporting someone out of a fight is also not always acceptable for heroes.

                    I disagree with the notion of shoehorning everything into Affliction. Teleport Attack is a valuable addition to the game that adds interesting options beyond spamming the same power round after round waiting for victims to fail their resistance. It moves victims around (past barriers) and removes Devices and equipment.

                    If you feel teleport attack is abusive, then what about tossing people with STR? With STR 15, you can throw a mass rank 2 human distance rank 13, or about 30 miles. What makes teleport attack a save-or-die but not STR 15?
                    Last edited by Ysariel; 06-08-2016, 07:37 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Transporting Yourself + Others with Dimensional Movement?

                      Str 15 is outside of standard game trade offs. It also typically requires a successful grab before you can throw the opponent. Teleport only requires a touch. Teleport 7 (with extended) is not outside standard tradeoffs, but goes the sane distance as str 15. Teleport 10 (with extended), a standard rank for an attack, sends someone 1000 miles, farther than even most speedsters can easily recover from.

                      Throwing someone also is limited by terrain. Teleport (with accurate, but no need for extended) can do things like putting someone in an underground cavern with no exit, or inside a cell at a maximum security prison-for-supers, or inside the treasure room of the nearest vengeful PL higher-than-you dragon (or other such monster that will kill the bad guy for you).

                      Similarly, you can only throw an enemy into terrain nearby. Teleport can drop them underwater, into an active volcano, or into outer space - all very hostile. Str might be able to do any of those, if they happen to be nearby. Accurate extended teleport can do any of those almost regardless of where you are.


                      But the main argument is: teleporting someone 100 feet (rank 2 teleport) in the air, unless they can fly, is almost always going to be worse than: dazing, hindering, prone, or other similar first degree afflictions. If you have the choice between a first degree affliction, or a teleport attack, why would you ever choose the affliction?

                      Similarly, teleporting someone 1000' (rank 6+ teleport) in the air (and the DC 20something toughness check the fall brings - I THINK its 21, but I'm not at my book) is (unless you fly) probably as good as any second degree affliction - because not only does it cause that toughness check, it takes more than 1 round to fall 1000' so you also remove their ability to act (effectively stunning them unless they have a significant ranged attack - and if its a rank 7 teleport, even after fall movement, they're still a fair way up so that ranged attack needs extended range to be in range of the ground). So, why take any second degree afflictions when you can (effectively) stun and damage most opponents with only one degree of failure?

                      Finally, a bog standard rank 10 teleport attack (no accurate or extended) sends you 4 miles in the air. That's a hefty toughness check if you can't fly, takes multiple rounds for you to fall the ground (effectively stunning you until you do. in fact, i think it's more than 10 rounds, making it better than a 3rd degree incapacitate; unless of course the victim has very long range ranged attacks). If you can fly, the average flyer* is less than Flight 7, which means it will still take them more than 10 rounds to get back to the ground (effectively incapacitating them unless they have very long range ranged attacks).
                      *This has been my experience, and won't apply to certain custom enemies. But Flight 7 is 250mph, and that seems faster than most fliers. YMMV.

                      And then you get into the accurate/extended shenanigans from the beginning of my post, which are generally better than any third degree condition, even though they only require one degree of failure.


                      A simple solution: 1 degree of failure teleports you 60'. 2 Degrees of failure teleports you the max distance of the teleport OR 500', whichever is lower. 3 degrees of failure teleports you the full distance allowed by the teleport rank. Both first and second ranks disallow Accurate extra.
                      Last edited by Nelphine; 06-09-2016, 04:01 AM.
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                      Fenix, in the Merge, and Alicia DeVries, in the Cosmic Merge
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                      • #12
                        Re: Transporting Yourself + Others with Dimensional Movement?

                        Note that most of Nelphine's concerns are about Extended Teleport specifically. That doesn't mean all Teleport Attacks are disruptive, only Extended ones are. He also downplays the effectiveness of tossing a lot. STR 15 is within the standard +5/-5 for a PL 10 character, and terrain means very little -- you can just toss someone straight up in the air. That you need to Grab someone first is the one limitation that makes this worse than Teleport Attack. But would you allow a save-or-die just because it took 2 saves instead of 1? My guess is not. Why then allow STR 15 but not Teleport Attack?

                        Nelphine doesn't address the issue of removing a valuable and interesting tool from the game, neither does he respond to the obvious solution of applying Limited to Effect DC to ranks beyond a certain amount. His comparisons of Teleport Attack with 1st degree conditions are skewed (Vulnerable is actually really dangerous since it invites power attacks) and neglect to mention that Teleport Attack isn't especially cheap. As someone who's actually played a character with Teleport Attack before, I know that in the hands of responsible players it's no more abusive than any other power. You can see the facts for yourself here:

                        http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewt...45626#p1051685

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                        • #13
                          Re: Transporting Yourself + Others with Dimensional Movement?

                          As pointed out, rank 10 teleport (without extended or accurate) is actually the most important concern. (And costs 2pp/rank, which is the same as strength, or most afflictions).

                          To be nitpicky, accurate is more problematical than extended, extended simply means that even speedsters can't deal with it.

                          I also provided a very simple solution that removes the 1 hit kill thing.

                          (Also, for strength, needing the grab is kind of like making a throw a second degree cumulative affliction. Which is about right for its cost. And if teleport was a second degree, then it would also match that cost - extended/accurate wouldn't of course. The concern is that teleport is first degree.)

                          And yes. A responsible player can make ANYTHING workable. But I think making something workable for a NEW player who doesn't know what may or may not be problematical - and even more, for a new GM, who doesn't know better - that should always be the goal.

                          (One other nitpick: standard tradeoffs are +-2 - 50% difference from each other, not 50% difference from the base. 8 is 4 away from 12, which makes 12 50% more than 8. So, per standard, +-5 is not within the guidelines, even if particular groups or GMs are certainly encouraged to use that.)
                          Last edited by Nelphine; 06-09-2016, 05:07 AM.
                          Ragtop, Autobot! And Zeanthara, Are You a God?
                          Fenix, in the Merge, and Alicia DeVries, in the Cosmic Merge
                          Supe of the Justice League Academy

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                          • #14
                            Re: Transporting Yourself + Others with Dimensional Movement?

                            I think having the "responsible player" as a benchmark is a nice concern, but it's only an individual one and something that can't be codified. If everyone operated along the comic book tropes and plot-necessary elements, then basically all concerns over abusive builds or exploitable rules would be nil. But sadly, that's not the case. As a story element, the street-level character on the team wouldn't have to worry about being hit by the teleport attack (or being thrown into next week) because that would remove him/her from the fight. But not every GM is going to recognize that or not take a deterministic approach to the game, e.g. "You chose to play that character with no extra movement, and that's how the die rolled, so...."

                            This is my standard lament about how Toughness-shifting is better than Defense-shifting. In the source material, the defense shifted character wouldn't be targeted by the Perception-ranged attack because mechanically their edge (higher defense) is moot. But players know this from a meta-viewpoint and can exploit that, e.g. Stun timing in 2e.

                            I think you have to recognize the potential for how an effect might be used. I don't have any control over how a player chooses to act, or whom s/he targets. Just like you don't see Cap getting his shield taken away and flung into space--he loses it when it suits the plot. But in any RPG, you have many plotters, and many times players with different agendas. Even if that agenda isn't malign, they might just be thinking meta-tactically, i.e. the most efficient way, and that might very well--with one failed check--remove someone entirely from combat. That's my issue with Save or Die effects.
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