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Short question about Defensive Roll & All-Out Attack

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  • Short question about Defensive Roll & All-Out Attack

    Is your toughness from Defensive Roll reduced when using All-out Attack?

    Edit: Don't know if this is relevant, but I'm asking about 3e
    Last edited by pokepotter4; 06-02-2016, 11:12 AM.

  • #2
    Re: Short question about Defensive Roll & All-Out Attack

    Yes.

    When you make an All-Out Attack you take a penalty on your Active Defenses and add a bonus to your attack's to hit roll. Toughness is not typically considered an Active Defense (Dodge and Parry always are), but with the Defensive Roll Advantage you receive a bonus to your Toughness equal to the advantage's rank, but it is considered an Active Defense.

    This you lose the bonus whenever you are vulnerable, defenseless, or any other conditions/circumstances that limit your Active Defense.

    Note, however, that only the portion of your Toughness that comes from the Defensive Roll Advantage is an Active Defense. If you have Stamina 8 and Defensive Roll (2), that's a total of Toughness 10... But using All-Out Attack for –5/+5 will only reduce your Toughness to 8, not 5.

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    • #3
      Re: Short question about Defensive Roll & All-Out Attack

      Although, by the same logic, Defensive Roll would benefit from using Defensive Attack to boost your defense at the price of your attack bonus.
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      • #4
        Re: Short question about Defensive Roll & All-Out Attack

        Originally posted by FuzzyBoots View Post
        Although, by the same logic, Defensive Roll would benefit from using Defensive Attack to boost your defense at the price of your attack bonus.
        Yes, yes it would... Defensive Attack gives a penalty of on your attack bonus and adds the same number to both your Active Defenses. This includes Toughness if you have the Defensive Roll Advantages... Buuuut your total Toughness, including the Defensive Roll ranks, is still limited by PL.

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        • #5
          Re: Short question about Defensive Roll & All-Out Attack

          Hmm... except that the combat maneuvers that swap attack for defense, by their nature, already break PL. *shrug* I know we've debated this one several times on the board. I would personally argue against letting the combat maneuvers adjust all defenses like that, but ultimately, it's up to the GM.
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          • #6
            Re: Short question about Defensive Roll & All-Out Attack

            Defensive Roll explicitly states that it is subject to PL caps. That's black and white rulebook text.

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            • #7
              Re: Short question about Defensive Roll & All-Out Attack

              So by that, Defensive Roll would go down from All Out Attack, but only go up from Defensive Attack if the person is below caps to begin with?
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              • #8
                Re: Short question about Defensive Roll & All-Out Attack

                Erm... as bought Toughness (regardless if from Stamina, Power, Advantage or Equipment), just like Parry and Dodge, is always subject to PL Limits, i don´t really get where you´re coming from.
                I mean, as long as a character is already at his defensive PL Limits, Defensive Attack will always break the defensive PL Limits for one round (just like All-Out Attack will do for the offensive PL). If you reduce the Toughness gained by Defensive Roll with All-Out Attack, you should also increase it with Defensive Attack (of course limited by the fact that it wont more than double the defensive roll gained toughness).

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                • #9
                  Re: Short question about Defensive Roll & All-Out Attack

                  I think the point is that Defensive Attack will still adjust Dodge and Parry, but will only adjust Defensive Roll (which can't exceed PL caps) if the person is below their caps to begin with.
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                  • #10
                    Re: Short question about Defensive Roll & All-Out Attack

                    Stop thinking of it as adjusting Parry and Dodge, because that is not what it does. It adjusts Active Defenses.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Short question about Defensive Roll & All-Out Attack

                      *shrug* The admonition for Defensive Roll is that "Your total Toughness, including this advantage, is still limited by power level." Unless you're arguing that someone has to undercapped to use the combat maneuver at all, I don't see your point since otherwise, the boost to your dodge and parry would also impact the PL calculations to determine your total toughness.

                      Honestly, I really think it's more likely that they erred in designating the Defensive Roll bonus as an "active defense". Yes, it should be reduced if you're vulnerable or defenseless (half for Vulnerable and all for defenseless) but you can't use it for routine checks, which is also implied to be part of an "active defense". But, unless JonL or Steve Kenson issued a clarification that I have not found, it is sort of left ambiguous as to what they meant.

                      Ultimately, I'd err on the side of not including Defensive Roll as an "active defense" for the purpose of combat maneuvers simply because it does have a disproportionate effect with those two feats if you interpret it that way. We already have agreed in earlier discussions that it does not work as an "active defense" for the routine defense. Frankly, Defensive Roll is lousy enough without further reducing its efficacy. That's my stance.
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                      • #12
                        Re: Short question about Defensive Roll & All-Out Attack

                        So what exactly is meant with Active Defense?
                        This remembers me of an argument I recently had with Madwand, who claimed that Active Defenses are only the ones used as DCs against attack rolls:
                        Dodge+10 =DC of ranged attack = Active Defense
                        Dodge rolled vs area attack = NO Active Defense
                        Lets just say, I didn't share this logic.
                        https://roninarmy.com/forum/atomic-think-tank/roll-call/7149-bothrops-pit#post7149

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                        • #13
                          Re: Short question about Defensive Roll & All-Out Attack

                          If this were to be erranted one change I would make would be to give different names for the active defense dodge vs aoe dodge as well as the defence will vs the save will. It would be much easier to understand if the terms had a 1 to 1 relationship with their mechanics.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Short question about Defensive Roll & All-Out Attack

                            Ok, I have another related question. Assuming Defensive Roll is affected by All-Out Attack and Defensive Attack. Would you apply the bonus from the Improved Defense advantage to Toughness with Defensive Roll ?

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                            • #15
                              Re: Short question about Defensive Roll & All-Out Attack

                              Yes; the Improved Defense Advantage says that "you gain a +2 cir- cumstance bonus to your active defense checks for the round." Defensive Roll turns a portion of your Tougness Save into an Active Defense, ergo, the bonus applies here as well.

                              It's really silly to argue this, if you ask me, the games rules specifically call some defenses Active Defenses. They don't say "Active Defenses, except for the Active Defenses that aren't really Active Defenses" and leave you to guess what they are.

                              Active Defenses means Active Defenses.

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