Grenade Effects

[Bothrops]

Just a little thought experiment.
I was always a bit dissatisfied with the way thrown grenades (or similar effects) are handled. Normally, a Ranged effect's actual range is based solely on its rank, and this seems a bit odd with THROWN grenades, whos range should be defined by the throwers strength (and not the grenade's blast power). In fact, by the rules there's little difference between a hand grenade and an RPG-launcher of the same power; IMHO the grenade should be cheaper, but shorter ranged than the RPG (so far, I usually took the Diminished Range flat flaw for thrown grenades). So I came up with the following idea for a houserule:
Thrown (1p flat extra)
This extra turns a Close Range effect into a Ranged one, by making the actual Increased Range extra into an AE of the user's Strength Damage. The range categories are based on strength rank, the distances are halved for every rank below 1 (so the range for a strength 0 thrower would be 12/25/50). An effect with this extra may never be Strength-Based (for obvious reasons).
What do you think?

[Nelphine]

Re: Grenade Effects

Off hand, I like it. Would make super strong fireball throwers happy.

[Unbeliever]

Re: Grenade Effects

It took me a little while to parse it, but I think it's probably fine. I wouldn't object to bringing back the old super-strength power feats from 2E, as I thought they worked well for the genre.

This does perhaps favor some builds. But, by the same token, that character could have theoretically had a Blast as an Alternate Effect (depending on concept, it's common with battlesuits, for instance) or simply thrown something or had an AE that represented that.

[Ysariel]

Re: Grenade Effects

I like it. It's both elegant and realistic, which I don't think happens very often.

[edit]

I just realized something. Very strictly, this wouldn't let a Str 0 character throw the grenade at any range, since with Str 0 you have no Str damage to build an AE off.

With that (and the thought of convincing skeptical GMs) in mind, if it were me, I would probably make it a 2pp flat extra instead, with the other 1pp going to pay for 1 rank of Increased Range. I am fine with characters with negative Str being unable to throw grenades.

[Nelphine]

Re: Grenade Effects

Second last line in his post:

The range categories are based on strength rank, the distances are halved for every rank below 1 (so the range for a strength 0 thrower would be 12/25/50).

[Batgirl III]

Re: Grenade Effects

Why not just use the Throwing Distance formula that is already present in the game?

Yes, it would require figuring out the Mass Rank of every grenade-like weapon, but it would be consistent that Captain Hero can throw both baseball and a hand grenade the same distance...

[Bothrops]

Re: Grenade Effects

Why not just use the Throwing Distance formula that is already present in the game?

Yes, it would require figuring out the Mass Rank of every grenade-like weapon, but it would be consistent that Captain Hero can throw both baseball and a hand grenade the same distance...

Because the absolute maximum throwing distance is not the same effective distance for actually hitting something (even if it's an area effect with technically no roll) - you need a natural 20 for hitting something beyond the long range category. EDIT: The normal throwing rules are already strength-rank-based for hitting things.
So Captain Hero might be able to toss that baseball or grenade across the Atlantic Ocean, but he's VERY unlikely going to hit something (at least not intentionally...).
Also, I want to stay consistent with the normal rules for ranged attacks.

[Bothrops]

Re: Grenade Effects

I just realized something. Very strictly, this wouldn't let a Str 0 character throw the grenade at any range, since with Str 0 you have no Str damage to build an AE off.

With that (and the thought of convincing skeptical GMs) in mind, if it were me, I would probably make it a 2pp flat extra instead, with the other 1pp going to pay for 1 rank of Increased Range. I am fine with characters with negative Str being unable to throw grenades.

Well, technically STR 0 doesn't mean no strength/damage at all...
Yet I have to agree with you: Making "Thrown" into a 2p flat extra is probably the best idea (in my interpretation: 1p for the AE + 1p for a Feature), I'll adopt that!
I would also add another limitation: "Thrown" is allowed for Equipment only. This should give the GM some extra control about what's feasible, since equipment is inherently limited compared to regular powers - I woudn't allow a player to buy a grenade-attack with the power of a tac-nuke as equipment, for example. My intention for this potential houserule was a more realistic simulation of grenades, not generally enabling cheaper ranged attacks.

@Unbeliever: Yes, this would indeed favor some builds. Namely "badass normals" (Batman, Punisher etc), who are the primary users of grenades and also tend to have decent (but not superhuman) strength scores. I honestly think that such builds could profit from a little "pampering".

Thanks for all your feedback so far. After all, this houserule was merely an idea, and I'm not yet sure to actually use it in my games (I usually avoid houserules that'll affect builds & point budgets).

[FuzzyBoots]

Re: Grenade Effects

I woudn't allow a player to buy a grenade-attack with the power of a tac-nuke as equipment, for example. My intention for this potential houserule was a more realistic simulation of grenades, not generally enabling cheaper ranged attacks.

The Computer is displeased at your lack of creativity.

[Bothrops]

Re: Grenade Effects

The Computer is displeased at your lack of creativity.

Oh crap, there goes another clone-body. I hope there's any backup left...

[Unbeliever]

Re: Grenade Effects

Well, technically STR 0 doesn't mean no strength/damage at all...
Yet I have to agree with you: Making "Thrown" into a 2p flat extra is probably the best idea (in my interpretation: 1p for the AE + 1p for a Feature), I'll adopt that!

What's the extra feature?

I would also add another limitation: "Thrown" is allowed for Equipment only. This should give the GM some extra control about what's feasible, since equipment is inherently limited compared to regular powers - I woudn't allow a player to buy a grenade-attack with the power of a tac-nuke as equipment, for example. My intention for this potential houserule was a more realistic simulation of grenades, not generally enabling cheaper ranged attacks.

I don't think this is necessary. I'm wary of "realism" in this system at any rate, and the same thing could be accomplished with tacnukes in the system fairly easily. Hence why I'd call it a 1 pt feature or flat extra and move on. There's no sense trying to perfectly balance M&M, that's not its intended purpose.

[Batgirl III]

Re: Grenade Effects

Especially considering that handheld devices with tactical nuclear weapon levels of power aren't exactly unknown in superhero comics or action-adventure movies.

I'm not saying they're appropriate for every campaign (and certainly not for every hero), but they aren't exactly outside the scope of the genre our system emulates best.

[Bothrops]

Re: Grenade Effects

Especially considering that handheld devices with tactical nuclear weapon levels of power aren't exactly unknown in superhero comics or action-adventure movies.

I'm not saying they're appropriate for every campaign (and certainly not for every hero), but they aren't exactly outside the scope of the genre our system emulates best.

I think you misunderstood me: While my "tac-nuke" example might be a bit of an exaggeration, I'm perfectly willing to allow a player a grenade-like weapon with massive power. But as a DEVICE, not as EQUIPMENT. That said, a powerful one-shot explosive charge would be ok, but not something usable every round - "The limits of equipment". AK47 (Ranged Multiattack Damage 5) = Equipment. BFG (Ranged Multiattack Damage 12) = Device

What's the extra feature?

Being thrown!

Honestly, this thread surprises me: I was expecting to be ripped to shreds ("No sensible GM would ever allow this!!!"), but instead I'm basically told that I'm too strict with my own proposed houserule!
I need a drink...cheers!

[chosenredead]

Re: Grenade Effects

I think it should be a quirk that applies to ranged effects instead of a single point flat extra. It's a little cheap at +1.

[flynnarrel]

Re: Grenade Effects

For Grenades I put on a Trigger: Grenade (Goes off 1 round after activation). That way it can be thrown, dropped, incorporated into traps, etc.