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  • To blast a mountain in half.

    Growing up I always read the X-men.My favorite X-man was Cyclops and the way they use to describe his Optic Blast.That it could blast a mountain in half or shatter it.So I was wandering what is the damage would you need to do that feat.I assume it would also involved Power Attack.

  • #2
    Re: To blast a mountain in half.

    I would play it through his uncontrolled power complication, meaning it would never be something the hero could actively do on his own. (Or, if he could, it would be a power stunt off of several powers at the sane time.)

    Then, to get the damage right, you just find the size of the mountain, find how much growth is needed for that size (also find out how low the mountains defenses are with that much growth), then get a damage rank in the same range, and apply liberal amounts of inaccurate to it - sure you can cut through a mountain, but you can't possibly control it enough to hit a regular target, like another human.

    For instance, if his standard power is rank 10 and +10 to hit, and the mountain is 5000' tall (admittedly, a rather small mountain) then you'd need size rank 8 which is 10 size increases from base human, which is ~40 ranks, so toughness 40 (and defenses -20), so you'd want damage rank 36 or so (which means 26 extra ranks of damage). But since he's PL 10, that would require a -16 to hit; so that would require 13 ranks of inaccurate.

    Overall that means it would cost 39 points more than his normal attack (+52 for the ranged damage, and -13 for the inaccurate) assuming the standard attack only is ranged with no other extras.

    Your gm might also require your short range attack to have enough range to reach all the way through the mountain. At rank 36, standard short range is 900'. Most likely that wouldn't reach through the mountain - you'd need like 20000'. So add 5 ranks of extended range as well, bringing the final total to 44 extra points.

    This doesn't use power attack, although you could do that to reduce the required points a bit.
    Last edited by Nelphine; 05-21-2016, 06:07 PM.
    Ragtop, Autobot! And Zeanthara, Are You a God?
    Fenix, in the Merge, and Alicia DeVries, in the Cosmic Merge
    Supe of the Justice League Academy

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    • #3
      Re: To blast a mountain in half.

      Don't forget also that the mountain is a construct and effectively defenseless and thus is subject to the rules for a finishing strike. So if your cyclops for example rolls to hit the mountain at a DC of 10 to hit, he auto crits for the +5 damage.
      Dr. Silverback has wryly observed that this is like trying to teach lolcats about Shakespeare

      [URL="http://roninarmy.com/threads/79-Showdown-at-the-Litterbox-New-Stuff?p=554&viewfull=1#post554"]Showdown at the Litterbox[/URL]

      [url=http://www.fanfiction.net/~catsi563]Catsi stories[/url]

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      • #4
        Re: To blast a mountain in half.

        Alternatively, you could Power Stunt his Optic Blast (which is presumably a Damage Effect) into an equivalent amount of Burrowing, as seen here.

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        • #5
          Re: To blast a mountain in half.

          Originally posted by Nelphine View Post
          ...
          Then, to get the damage right, you just find the size of the mountain, find how much growth is needed for that size (also find out how low the mountains defenses are with that much growth), then get a damage rank in the same range, and apply liberal amounts of inaccurate to it - sure you can cut through a mountain, but you can't possibly control it enough to hit a regular target, like another human.

          For instance, if his standard power is rank 10 and +10 to hit, and the mountain is 5000' tall (admittedly, a rather small mountain) then you'd need size rank 8 which is 10 size increases from base human, which is ~40 ranks, so toughness 40 (and defenses -20), so you'd want damage rank 36 or so (which means 26 extra ranks of damage). But since he's PL 10, that would require a -16 to hit; so that would require 13 ranks of inaccurate.
          ...
          Just out of curiosity: why do you use Growth to get the Toughness of the mountain, instead of the material toughness rules (Base Toughness of Stone [5] at "Thickness" [Distance Rank] -7, +1 Toughness per increase in "Thickness" Rank [aka the Mountains Radius*2 on Distance Rank].) presented under "damaging an object"?

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          • #6
            Re: To blast a mountain in half.

            Because it seems to give results that make the most sense. Specifically with regards to things like: spaceships, vehicles, planets, and players. Both in regards to damage level and accuracy level. And if it works for all of those, and provides a framework that works, why change it?

            Does it make sense for you to require almost twice the damage level of a nuclear missile to cut a mountain in half? I think it does.

            So lets compare with the object rules:

            base of 5+1 per distance rank (wait, this is kind of like size rank..)

            so, here you get 5+1 per size rank. Now I used height earlier (which was probably a bad choice, but it was off the top of my head); if we did that, then we'd go from -7 to +8, or 15 size ranks, or toughness 20. This means a nuke.. would cut a mountain in half. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. In fact, someone who power attacked with a standard helicoptor missile.. cuts.. the.. mountain.. in half.

            Really?

            Ok, so now lets look at thickness (or radius*2). Ok, my example above had 20000' thickness. That sounds better than 5000' height! Except.. that's only 2 more distance ranks. Toughness 22.

            No.


            Note this same problem came up when the article was printed about destroying a planet. You needed something like a PL 12 character... to cut a planet in half. Doesn't make any sense at all (to me). With the growth method, the moon is around toughness 80, and the sun is about 105. Which actually makes sense for a scale, and the system handles it just fine.

            The problem is the object rules only grant 1 toughness per size. Growth grants 4. Why should, say, doubling the size of an iron statue add 1 extra toughness, but doubling the size of a living statue adds 4 extra toughness?

            Why does the fact that it's a creature quadruple its potential toughness??


            Of course, growth isn't perfect. It does NOT account for differences in material strength, or reinforcements, or anything else.

            But, what I suggest is that you take growth as the standard toughness for an object. Then modify it based on its material and construction, and think in terms of 'power level compared to an 'average' object that size'.

            So, if you have an average mountain, that's toughness 40, and -20 defenses. Thats PL 10. Ok, but the stone in that mountain is the foundation of the earth stone! Fine, lets make it PL 12. Defenses probably don't change. (It is a mountain afterall), so you increase its toughness to 44. But wait, the mountain next to it is pure adamantium! (Wolverine is so jealous.) Thats probably PL 15. So its toughness is 50. And the fourth mountain? Its made out of pasta. Its weaksauce. PL 5. So its toughness 30. (Because despite being pasta, the chance of one attack being able to do something significant to an entire mountain of pasta.. is low.)


            Edit: Sorry for some of the opinionated comments. I was just trying to walk through my original thought process.
            Last edited by Nelphine; 05-22-2016, 01:38 AM.
            Ragtop, Autobot! And Zeanthara, Are You a God?
            Fenix, in the Merge, and Alicia DeVries, in the Cosmic Merge
            Supe of the Justice League Academy

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            • #7
              Re: To blast a mountain in half.

              The real question is, is a hapless mountain an enemy you regularly fight? If it isn't, then no rank of Damage required; just a Hero Point and Edit Scene, or a plot device.

              Knowing when not to model things with mechanics is just as important as knowing how to.

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              • #8
                Re: To blast a mountain in half.

                Nah, modeling the mechanics is perfectly fine, especially a) if you're a math/numbers person or b) those mechanics are extremely close to something else you would use anyway (in this case, space ships and space combat. Maybe not for this gm or group, but because I have a hefty interest in that sub genre, it literally takes 30 seconds for me to go from spaceship rules, to mountain rules).

                However, knowing that despite being able to model it, you can also do hero point scene edit to get the same result, that is important. But it doesn't reduce the importance of being able to mechanically model it, in a system that easily can do such models.
                Last edited by Nelphine; 05-22-2016, 07:54 AM.
                Ragtop, Autobot! And Zeanthara, Are You a God?
                Fenix, in the Merge, and Alicia DeVries, in the Cosmic Merge
                Supe of the Justice League Academy

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: To blast a mountain in half.

                  Originally posted by Ysariel View Post
                  The real question is, is a hapless mountain an enemy you regularly fight? If it isn't, then no rank of Damage required; just a Hero Point and Edit Scene, or a plot device.

                  Knowing when not to model things with mechanics is just as important as knowing how to.
                  This. If the mountain isn't important to the plot and the player just wants to do some cool thing, treat it as "edit scene." Because we want to encourage players to spend their hero points doing cool things.

                  This is, after all, a game where - with the right backstory or powers - you can stunt time travel or dimensional travel. Stunting 'blast the mountain' should be reasonably achievable.

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                  • #10
                    Re: To blast a mountain in half.

                    Originally posted by Nelphine
                    However, knowing that despite being able to model it, you can also do hero point scene edit to get the same result, that is important. But it doesn't reduce the importance of being able to mechanically model it, in a system that easily can do such models.
                    Yes, I agreed to that too.
                    Ragtop, Autobot! And Zeanthara, Are You a God?
                    Fenix, in the Merge, and Alicia DeVries, in the Cosmic Merge
                    Supe of the Justice League Academy

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                    • #11
                      Re: To blast a mountain in half.

                      To borrow from the Heavy Weapon Gadget Guide on the subject of destroying the Earth....

                      While made of a wide variety of materials, we’ll consider the Earth’s base Toughness around rank 8.
                      an object’s Toughness equals its base rank + (distance [of thickness] rank + 7)
                      Let’s say the Earth’s Toughness is also Impervious,
                      Assuming a mountain is made up of the same things that the earth is, I think we can use the base 8 here too. A single mountain is a variety of thicknesses. I'm going to assume a smallish mountain that's 4 miles (rank 10) wide at its widest point.

                      So, a mountain would have an Impervious Toughness of 25. Basically, this is means that attack needs at least 15 ranks of damage in order for the mountain to have a chance at getting two degrees of failure. The math is in the aforementioned Gadget Guide. I'm just subtracting 10 because of the difference in Toughness of the Earth vs one mountain (the joy of exponential scaling.)

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                      • #12
                        Re: To blast a mountain in half.

                        Which means average superhero with a damage 10 attack and power attack can get two degrees of failure on a mountain.

                        If that works for you, go ahead.
                        Ragtop, Autobot! And Zeanthara, Are You a God?
                        Fenix, in the Merge, and Alicia DeVries, in the Cosmic Merge
                        Supe of the Justice League Academy

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                        • #13
                          Re: To blast a mountain in half.

                          Originally posted by Nelphine View Post
                          Which means average superhero with a damage 10 attack and power attack can get two degrees of failure on a mountain.

                          If that works for you, go ahead.
                          Did you miss the Impervious Toughness 25 part?

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                          • #14
                            Re: To blast a mountain in half.

                            While it's an interesting thought-experiment (and that's exactly after your fancy, right Nelphine? ), I wouldn't treat a mountain (or similar gigantic thing) as a single object concerning most effects, unless said effects can really encompass the target completely (for example, massive area-ranks): Even drilling a hole through the mountain would barely damage it as a whole.
                            https://roninarmy.com/forum/atomic-think-tank/roll-call/7149-bothrops-pit#post7149

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                            • #15
                              Re: To blast a mountain in half.

                              Originally posted by Batgirl III View Post
                              Did you miss the Impervious Toughness 25 part?
                              I assume you don't allow maneuvers to overcome impervious then. Fair enough - i do the same. So you need a damage 13 effect and the power attack maneuver (not the advantage). Slightly rarer, but still reasonable for a powerhouse wielding a magic sword (only magic required is that his strength won't break it - any normal object that wouldn't break and is a damage 3 str based item would work)

                              But I don't think a standard superhero should be able to do that. I would want it to be a power stunt at least.
                              Last edited by Nelphine; 05-25-2016, 08:55 AM.
                              Ragtop, Autobot! And Zeanthara, Are You a God?
                              Fenix, in the Merge, and Alicia DeVries, in the Cosmic Merge
                              Supe of the Justice League Academy

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