Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Confused about fractional costs

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Confused about fractional costs

    Good Day,
    i am right now slowly processing through the Deluxe-Heroes-Handbook and am now a little bit stuck at "fractional costs".

    In the book it is explained, that

    If total flaws reduce an effect’s cost per rank to less than 1 power point, each additional –1 to cost per rank beyond that adds to the number of ranks of the effect you get by spending 1 power point on a 1-to-1 basis.
    So, if you had 0 power points per Rank, it's one Power Point for two ranks.
    If you were at -1, you would get three ranks for one Power Point.
    Until here i am pretty sure, i understood.

    Now the book gives an example.

    Example: A hero has Protection, which costs 1 point per rank. The Protection has two modifiers; the first is the Imperious extra (a +1 point per rank modifier), and the second is the flaw Limited to Blunt Physical Attacks (a –3 points per rank modifier) for a total modifier of –2. Since Protection costs 1 point per rank, the –2 modifier increases the number of ranks per power point, so the final cost is 1 power point per 3ranks of Impervious Protection Limited to Blunt Physical Attacks.
    So, you start with Protection. One Point per Rang. (1PP --> 1 rank)
    You go to Imperious Protection, which costs one additional point per rank and are at two Points per Rang. (2PP --> 1 rank)
    Now it's changed to Imperious Protection limited to Blunt Physical Attacks. The limit gives you two points, so we are at a net zero.
    This would mean, that the cost for the power are one point per two ranks. (1PP --> 2 ranks)
    But the example says it's one point per three ranks.

    Am i missing something here?

    GM-to-be who is new to M&M and Pen-and-Paper in generell and without a firm grasp of the english language. My apologies for questions and comments that sound stupider than you are used too.

  • #2
    Ah, they actually priced the Protection being limited to Blunt Physical attacks as a -3 modifier, as in your text above, so it is 1 (Protection) + 1 (Impervious) -3 (very Limited) = -1. The "-2" was achieved by Adding the Impervious Flaw to their Limited Flaw. 1 - 3 = -2.

    Frankly, the example is kind of ridiculous. Each -1 in a Flaw ought to reduce utility by about 50%. First of all, I'm a bit skeptical that that particular limit is worth a -3 (a lot of people will be hitting you with their bare hands or an improvised physical weapon). Secondly, for any appreciable investment in that Protection, the character will be (or should be for the point break) under PL defensively at least 87% of the time.

    FWIW, this is not a 3E artifact. That example is lifted pretty much verbatim from the 2E book, only removing the hypothetical hero name and replacing it with "The Hero".
    [url=http://roninarmy.com/threads/996]My Builds[/url]

    [b]Current games:[/b]
    [url=http://www.echoesofthemultiverse.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=839]The J.V. Team (GM)[/URL]

    Comment


    • #3
      Ahhh!
      I have a (really annoying) tendency to overlook things that are written in brackets...
      Thank you very much.

      Secondly, for any appreciable investment in that Protection, the character will be (or should be for the point break) under PL defensively at least 87% of the time.
      Would you mind explaining this part further?
      What do you mean by "under PL [Power Level, i guess] defensively at least 87% of the time"? Also: What is a "Point break"?
      GM-to-be who is new to M&M and Pen-and-Paper in generell and without a firm grasp of the english language. My apologies for questions and comments that sound stupider than you are used too.

      Comment


      • #4
        If every Flaw reduces utility by a Hal, or 50%, the third power of it is 1/8, or 12.5%. The inverse of that is 7/8, or 87.5%. And "point break" refers to the number of points saved. Instead of 24 points, they're paying 4 pp.
        [url=http://roninarmy.com/threads/996]My Builds[/url]

        [b]Current games:[/b]
        [url=http://www.echoesofthemultiverse.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=839]The J.V. Team (GM)[/URL]

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by FuzzyBoots View Post
          First of all, I'm a bit skeptical that that particular limit is worth a -3
          Well, limiting it to just "energy" or just "physical attacks" is a -1/rank flaw, since either one cuts out roughly half of all attacks.

          How many types of physical attacks are there? Blunt, Piercing, and Edged, right? So "limited to blunt" is more than 50% restrictive, making it a -2/rank flaw. So the two together equals -3.

          I agree it's a ridiculous example, since no character should ever be built this way. But for the sake of illustrating the math behind flaws it works fine.

          Comment


          • #6
            Don't think of it as math. Just think in terms of a number line. Powers cost x per rank where rank is one of:

            ...etc 1/5 1/4 1/3 1/2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 etc...

            Find the base cost on the number line. Move right once for each extra. Move left once for each flaw. So for example, 2 + 1 extra - 4 flaws is 2 -> 3 <- 2 <- 1 <- 1/2 <- 1/3

            If you insist on a formula, it is (base) + (extras) - (flaws) = n | when n > 0, then n | when n <= 0 then 1/(2-n)

            And then you multiply all of that by ranks and then you add and subtract flat extras and flat flaws.

            This will be second nature to you in a week or two.

            Comment


            • #7
              How does this work with Enhanced Skills, Limited to (Whatever)? I've seen this priced as 3 skill points cost 1 power point, and 4 skill points cost 1 power point.

              An example might be Enhanced Insight 8, Limited to Resisting Feinting. Is that 3 points, or 2?

              Comment


              • #8
                Alright, i tried to answer this, but still do not seem to understand it. At least my outcome does not match one of the given answers.

                Since Insight is a skill, you get two ranks per one Power Point. So you are at 1/2 PP per rank.
                Now you also limit it to Feinting, which gives another rank per PowerPoint, so you are at 1/3 PP per Rank.
                In this case you could not reach "Enhanced Insight 8, Limited to Resisting Feinting". With one PP you would reach Rank 3, with two you would reach Rank 6 and with three you already were at Rank 9.
                GM-to-be who is new to M&M and Pen-and-Paper in generell and without a firm grasp of the english language. My apologies for questions and comments that sound stupider than you are used too.

                Comment


                • #9
                  It's been kind of contentious, to be honest. Most items in Enhanced Trait are bought at 1 for 1. Skills are a bit of an anomaly, and people have played with Limited being 1 for 3 or 1 for 4 (the latter conveniently returning skills, which tended to be more narrow in the first place, to 2E costs). My immediate impulse is to let the Flawed go to 1 for 4, but I'll admit that that's probably partly due to my 2E bias.

                  I was unable to find a case in the books where a skill was limited, but I'm sure it happened. It wouldn't surprise me if they use whatever Hero Lab rules this as, as they have started releasing Hero Lab portfolios with the books, and have historically been able to implement rules fixes there (assuming they still care to do so).
                  [url=http://roninarmy.com/threads/996]My Builds[/url]

                  [b]Current games:[/b]
                  [url=http://www.echoesofthemultiverse.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=839]The J.V. Team (GM)[/URL]

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by FuzzyBoots View Post
                    Most items in Enhanced Trait are bought at 1 for 1. Skills are a bit of an anomaly,
                    Aren't there just four things, you can advance with that?
                    Skills, Defences, Abilities and Advantages.
                    Now Advantages and Defences cost one PowerPoint for each rank, but Abilities cost 2PP per Rank and Skills should cost half a PP per rank. So it does not seem that... abnormal, that they are not bought for one PP per rank.
                    GM-to-be who is new to M&M and Pen-and-Paper in generell and without a firm grasp of the english language. My apologies for questions and comments that sound stupider than you are used too.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I think the right way is to say the cost of Enhanced Trait is 1 PP per Rank (PPR). And if you limit is, it becomes 1/2 PPR and thus Skills would cost 1/4. I assume this is "correct" only because that's how HeroLab would do it. Generally you don't just by one enhanced trait. You usually have a set of traits that all get modified together. So you add the total cost of all that up (in PP) and then you apply the extras and flaws to that total. Skills will end up 1/4 if the Enhanced Trait power ends up costing 1/2 PPR.

                      ** I say "correct" in quotes as we don't know HeroLab is right and "correct" is only as meaningful as your GM allows it.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Okay, as somebody who has no clue, what exactly HeroLab is, i go only by the Handbook right now, which does not say, that EnhancedTrait has a general cost but that the cost is the same per rank, as the trait would be, if you would have bought it normally.
                        GM-to-be who is new to M&M and Pen-and-Paper in generell and without a firm grasp of the english language. My apologies for questions and comments that sound stupider than you are used too.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          HeroLab is commercial software for character creation for various TRPGs, including M&M. It is officially licensed from Green Ronin so presumably it is "correct".

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by jmucchiello View Post
                            HeroLab is commercial software for character creation for various TRPGs, including M&M. It is officially licensed from Green Ronin so presumably it is "correct".
                            Not always. There are bugs. But, at least at one point, they had Green Ronin correcting them on mechanical bits.

                            And you're right. I forgot about Abilities.
                            [url=http://roninarmy.com/threads/996]My Builds[/url]

                            [b]Current games:[/b]
                            [url=http://www.echoesofthemultiverse.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=839]The J.V. Team (GM)[/URL]

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I'm very aware of bugs in HeroLab but mostly when you try to do things that are "hard". I don't know of any calculation bugs.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X