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  • Afflictions "overcome by damage"

    Where is how this works explained? I couldn't seem to find any reference that wasn't part of a characters powers.
    I understand the concept, Rocky creates stone hands to immobilize the target, and the hands must be broken to break free. However, how much damage needs to be done? Does it depend on affliction rank? Does the material toughness apply? Is a hit roll required?

  • #2
    If I'm not mistaken, it works the same way any other save works. If you have a +5 damage bonus, then you roll against the save DC at the end of your turn (or after a minute) just like if you were using a +5 Fortitude or Will bonus.
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    • #3
      Originally posted by RainOnTheSun View Post
      If I'm not mistaken, it works the same way any other save works. If you have a +5 damage bonus, then you roll against the save DC at the end of your turn (or after a minute) just like if you were using a +5 Fortitude or Will bonus.
      That can't be all of it though, as a _different_ character can break the affliction than the one caught. So how would that work?

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      • #4
        Unfortunately, MnM has no in-built mechanism for a character to help another character to recover from an Affliction. PC are at the mercy of descriptors, their creativity, and the GM to do so. Sometimes powers can be use for countering to help (I've used Healing to counter the Affliction of a poisoned PC), and surely Damage can be used to counter some Afflictions, but your GM will need to agree that the descriptors are appropriate for this to occur.

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        • #5
          It looks like quite a few of the rules weren't thought about enough. If you apply an "overcome by damage" affliction to someone who is insubstantial, would it even work? e.g. a pair of leg irons impeding movement, a hood impeding sight etc.

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          • #6
            I would assume "Overcome by Damage" is a flaw. The description of the flaw should explain how damage reduces the affliction.

            Presumably, when the damage effect "hits", you roll 1d20+damage rank against the DC of affliction instead of using will ranks or fortitude ranks.

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            • #7
              Hmm... it would probably be a Flaw if it were Resistable by an additional save. The canonical case is Snare:
              The resistance check to break out of a Snare is based on Damage (including Strength Damage) or Sleight of Hand, either breaking the effect or slipping out of it. This is part of the power’s Alternate Resistance, with no change in cost.
              So, there, there's two saves on the breakout (one relatively rare) for a +0 Extra.
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              • #8
                This is from the deluxe edition quickstart character creation, earth elemental.
                Earthen Snare: Cumulative Affliction 10 (Resisted by Dodge, Overcome by Damage; Hindered and Vulnerable, Immobile and Defenseless), Extra Condition, Limited to Two Degrees • 1 point
                Affliction 1 point/rank; Cumulative +1/rank; Alternate resitance +0; Extra Condition +1/rank; Limited -1/rank
                Unless my maths is worse than I thought, that adds to 2 points/rank, so Overcome by Damage is a -1/rank flaw

                Nowhere in the affliction description is the word "overcome" used. Failing to resist just means you keep resisting until the check is passed.

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                • #9
                  Effect: Ranged (+1), Cumulative Affliction, Extra Condition (+1), Resisted by Dodge (+1?), Limited Degree (-1) • 3 points per rank

                  You can restrain a target with bonds of ice, glue, webbing, bands of energy, and so forth (whatever suits your descriptors). The target makes a Dodge resistance check against your effect DC. One degree of failure leaves the target hindered and vulnerable, while two results in the target becoming defenseless and immobilized. There is no additional effect for three or more degrees of failure.

                  The resistance check to break out of a Snare is based on Damage (including Strength Damage) or Sleight of Hand, either breaking the effect or slipping out of it. This is part of the power’s Alternate Resistance, with no change in cost.

                  Shouldn't "Overcome by Damage" be a -1 PPR at a minimum? No other affliction can be overcome by damage. Snare would cost 2 PPR if "overcome by damage" were a standard flaw.

                  It's in Power Profiles as well. And apparently is a -0 Flaw. There are PP powers that are "Overcome by Fortitude".

                  Regardless, I think "Overcome by" need to be added to the Affliction description. Maybe a question for Steve?

                  M&M really needs an "annual" book to clear some of this stuff up. (There are other rules clarifications that are needed right? Adding ranks to morph against other. Stuff like that.)

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                  • #10
                    I don't know if Steve Kenson is really involved with the product any more, but clarification would be nice. Ultimately, I think Snare treated it as +0 as being a combination of being something typically at PL (Damage) plus the rarer skill.

                    Now that I think about it, letting others help break the Snare is basically a Counter action with an appropriate Descriptor
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                    • #11
                      What is a "counter" action? Letting other help is a flaw for affliction. Usually the only help is Nullify.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by jmucchiello View Post
                        What is a "counter" action? Letting other help is a flaw for affliction. Usually the only help is Nullify.
                        Counter shows up in the Power section. Usually, it's an all-or-nothing action, modeled off of Nullify, which is a more general counter, but it makes sense to me that it would work off of degrees of success, allowing less than total success in freeing someone from an Affliction.
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                        • #13
                          But the example on countering lingering effects shows using Nullify against Affliction. That's hardly definitive. I still say the fact that afflictions are not usually affected by damage should be a flaw. Why have the text "Overcome by damage" when you could just have the descriptor "Physical". It's a twitchy failure to be consistent with the rules. Also the counter rules need help some descriptors are their own opposites. "Chemical" afflictions can most likely be overcome with "Chemical" effects, for example.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by GrumpyOldAndy View Post
                            This is from the deluxe edition quickstart character creation, earth elemental.
                            Earthen Snare: Cumulative Affliction 10 (Resisted by Dodge, Overcome by Damage; Hindered and Vulnerable, Immobile and Defenseless), Extra Condition, Limited to Two Degrees • 1 point
                            Affliction 1 point/rank; Cumulative +1/rank; Alternate resitance +0; Extra Condition +1/rank; Limited -1/rank
                            Unless my maths is worse than I thought, that adds to 2 points/rank, so Overcome by Damage is a -1/rank flaw

                            Nowhere in the affliction description is the word "overcome" used. Failing to resist just means you keep resisting until the check is passed.
                            Nope.
                            Basic Affliction +1, Cumulative +1, Extra Condition +1, Alternate Resistance +0, Limited to 2 degrees -1 = 2p/rank
                            Overcome by Damage is not a -1/rank flaw.
                            "Overcome" in this context means specifically the "breakout" save, in the case of afflictions that use different traits for the initial resist check and the breakout check (such as Snare).

                            If you apply an "overcome by damage" affliction to someone who is insubstantial, would it even work? e.g. a pair of leg irons impeding movement, a hood impeding sight etc.
                            Nope. Insubstantial allows ignoring any physical bonds incapable of holding the character's form (by descriptor). For example, anything less than an airtight bubble cannot hold someone with Insub 2.


                            Originally posted by jmucchiello
                            M&M really needs an "annual" book to clear some of this stuff up. (There are other rules clarifications that are needed right? Adding ranks to morph against other. Stuff like that.)
                            You're not the first person complaining about the lack of an official FAQ for 3e, and you will certainly not be the last. Personally, I've given up any hope on that, so I'd suggest using good ol' common sense for dealing with the numerous gaps within the rules.

                            On the other issue: I see zero problems with teammates helping with overcoming /countering an affliction (=not warranting a flaw). "Damage" (for breaking snares) is just the most simple & straightforward way. A "poison" affliction may be cured by a teammate's Healing power. Or a teammate with the Treatment skill may use it for an Aid action, providing the victim with a bonus to the resistance check.
                            And so on, use your creativity.
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Bothrops View Post
                              Nope.
                              Basic Affliction +1, Cumulative +1, Extra Condition +1, Alternate Resistance +0, Limited to 2 degrees -1 = 2p/rank
                              Overcome by Damage is not a -1/rank flaw.
                              You are correct. I erred by rushing and not considering it was actually part of an array and the 1 point was the alternate effect cost not a 1/rank cost.
                              On the other issue: I see zero problems with teammates helping with overcoming /countering an affliction (=not warranting a flaw). "Damage" (for breaking snares) is just the most simple & straightforward way. A "poison" affliction may be cured by a teammate's Healing power. Or a teammate with the Treatment skill may use it for an Aid action, providing the victim with a bonus to the resistance check.
                              And so on, use your creativity.
                              So a "normal" affliction can only be cured by using specific powers for a specific affliction, which most people will not have, or the person affected resisting. As literally anyone could help break a physical affliction, (shoot the handcuffs, hit them with a rock, use a stick as leverage... ) I would argue that this is a major weakening of the affliction effect, and thus is a flaw.

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