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  • Strength Damage Array

    I'm trying to wrap my head around using strength damage as an array. My character has a strength of 10, so that gives me an "Alternate Effects of Strength Damage" pool of 10 points for any AE. That much I understand. What I'm getting lost on is if I add Accurate 3 to my strength damage. Would that make the "Alternate Effects of Strength Damage" array it a 13 point array? Or would it still be 10?

  • #2
    Yes, if you mean:

    Array 15 (13 max)
    * Strength 10, Accurate 3 (13 PP)
    * power 2 (1 PP)
    * power 3 (1 PP)

    Some GMs don't like this construct, especially if you are putting all of your strength into the array. (remember array is just a shorthand for alternate effects)

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    • #3
      Originally posted by jmucchiello View Post
      Yes, if you mean:

      Array 15 (13 max)
      * Strength 10, Accurate 3 (13 PP)
      * power 2 (1 PP)
      * power 3 (1 PP)

      Some GMs don't like this construct, especially if you are putting all of your strength into the array. (remember array is just a shorthand for alternate effects)
      Pretty much this is what I was looking at, except I spent 20 points to buy strength 10 as an attribute. so it would be:
      On Strength damage 10, accurate 3 (13 PP array) cost: 5PP
      *AE power 1 (1 PP)
      *AE Power 2 (1 PP)

      Total points spent: 25.

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      • #4
        If you're alt-ing off of your Strength damage, don't forget that you might not be using your full damage rank. So if you already had +10 Close Attack, and are at PL 10, you might have a 1 PP AE of "Damage 4, Accurate 3, Precise, Split 2" perhaps.

        Theoretically, if you have the Close Combat skill on Unarmed Damage, it would also apply to Strength AEs that are also Unarmed strikes, but that's between you and your GM.
        [url=http://roninarmy.com/threads/996]My Builds[/url]

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        • #5
          I messed up the costs. Yes. And Fuzzy, I think he's putting accurate in the array so he's not using Close Combat or Close Attack (or Fighting) to boost his unarmed attacks.

          The real problem with a strength array is if you are holding anything heavy and switch the array to a non-Strength alternate, you are no longer holding anything heavy.

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          • #6
            You wouldn't drop anything, because you're only AEing off Strength Damage and not the Strength Move Object.

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            • #7
              Figuring out the size of the array is one of the main reasons I was asking but it does bring up some secondary questions. Since the accurate extra is tied to strength damage, would it apply to thrown attacks since that is using my strength damage? If not, would having an AE: Strength damage 10, Accurate 3 (Ranged) be legal?
              I see my character rarely throwing things and don't want to really put several points into ranged for something that will rarely come up if that accurate wouldn't apply to ranged. But I wouldn't mind paying 1 PP for an AE to be able to occasionally throw a car accurately.

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              • #8
                Be clear, there is no such thing as "Strength Damage only". You can buy "Damage 10, accurate 3" and get a close damage effect for 13 PP. Or you can buy "Strength 10, accurate 3" for 23 PP and that gets you STRENGTH which you can use close with a punch, close with a grab, or ranged by throwing something. The first may have the descriptor strength but it is not "Strength" the game term.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by jmucchiello View Post
                  Be clear, there is no such thing as "Strength Damage only". You can buy "Damage 10, accurate 3" and get a close damage effect for 13 PP. Or you can buy "Strength 10, accurate 3" for 23 PP and that gets you STRENGTH which you can use close with a punch, close with a grab, or ranged by throwing something. The first may have the descriptor strength but it is not "Strength" the game term.
                  I'm working off of the Deluxe Heroes Handbook, pg 156 under Strength and Damage: "Strength provides a “built-in” Damage effect: the ability to hit things! You can apply effect modifiers to the Damage your Strength inflicts, making it Penetrating or even an Area effect! You can also have Alternate Effects for your Strength Damage; see the Alternate Effect modifier for details. Like other Damage effects, a character’s Strength Damage is close range and instant duration by default."

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Ahrimon View Post
                    I'm trying to wrap my head around using strength damage as an array. My character has a strength of 10, so that gives me an "Alternate Effects of Strength Damage" pool of 10 points for any AE. That much I understand. What I'm getting lost on is if I add Accurate 3 to my strength damage. Would that make the "Alternate Effects of Strength Damage" array it a 13 point array? Or would it still be 10?
                    Saying Alternate Effects of Strength Damage is confusing to me. You might be saying you have Enhanced Strength 10, Limited to Lifting/Non-Damage outside of the Array, but you can use your Array to have the full benefit of Strength. (I have seen characters built that way, but it's just ... confusing. You don't want a confused GM.)

                    In this case, you don't have Strength 10, you have Strength 0. You only have part of that, and need to use powers to have the whole thing. You can sacrifice Strength (either the while thing, or just carrying capacity) although you might be using that part of your Array "by default". (As in, unless you say otherwise, you're using that part of the Array.)

                    It would be a 13 point Array (as in, presumably that's the most expensive power you have). I think the prime power would be written as: Strength to Damage up to Rank 10, Accurate 3 • 13 points

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                    • #11
                      Yes, Strength provides a Damage effect, But you cannot separate the Damage effect from your Strength. You either have "Str 10, +extras/flws" or you have an independent damage effect "Damage 10, +extras/flaws." If you have the independent effect, you need to buy strength separately if you want to lift stuff.

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                      • #12
                        The official entry for superman would say otherwise as well as the wording of the deluxe heroes handbook "You can also have Alternate Effects for your Strength Damage".

                        Sups is Str 19
                        Super-Breath: Alternate Effects of Strength Damage (19 points)
                        • Cone Area Affliction 9 (Resisted by Fortitude; Hindered, Immobile, Paralyzed) • 1 point
                        • Cone Area Move Object 9, Close Range, Limited to Pushing and Pulling • 1 point

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by jmucchiello View Post
                          Yes, Strength provides a Damage effect, But you cannot separate the Damage effect from your Strength. You either have "Str 10, +extras/flws" or you have an independent damage effect "Damage 10, +extras/flaws." If you have the independent effect, you need to buy strength separately if you want to lift stuff.
                          Just to be clear, are you arguing that one can't have an "AE on one's strength damage"? The books do support that. I think they're a bit more hazy on the "add an Extra to your Strength damage", but it's effectively its own power as you say, a "Damage 0 (Strength-Based)" attack. Just to note, Hero Lab have it a name, like "Strength Effect", so you might see people say that.
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                          [b]Current games:[/b]
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by FuzzyBoots View Post

                            Just to be clear, are you arguing that one can't have an "AE on one's strength damage"? The books do support that. I think they're a bit more hazy on the "add an Extra to your Strength damage", but it's effectively its own power as you say, a "Damage 0 (Strength-Based)" attack. Just to note, Hero Lab have it a name, like "Strength Effect", so you might see people say that.
                            The book does say that you can have extras to your strength damage. "You can apply effect modifiers to the Damage your Strength inflicts, making it Penetrating or even an Area effect!"

                            Where it get's fuzzy to me, and potentially munchkiny, is combining damage attacks. We know that you can add extras to strength. We know that you can create a second damage effect that adds to strength (Sword, etc). We know that if you add an extra to that second damage effect (e.g. Multiattack) you have to pay for your strength ranks as well so a damage 5 multiattack effect would cost 10 as an effect cost plus 10 to pay for multiattack on a strength of 10, making the total cost 20.

                            I can only assume that if you had multiattack on your strength, 10 points for a strength 10 character, and added a damage 5 attack that works with strength (2pp/rank) it would cost another 10 for a total of 20. But what about flat modifiers? Using the book example of adding penetrating to strength, if you had penetrating 5 on your strength 10 character it would be 5 points. If you added a 5 damage sword effect (no mulitattack in this example) , it would be another 5 points. Would the final sword attack have that 5 points of penetrating since it's part of your strength? It would have gotten the multiattack as far as I can see.

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                            • #15
                              It never occurred to me to create an alternate effect on STR Damage because such an effect would generally be useless in game. Who has STR 19?

                              To answer the original question. Yes. It is Hero Lab legal to add accurate to the STR Damage effect and then create an alternate effect based on the extra PPs accurate adds to STR. It seems a bit iffy there to my GM sense. But it is apparently book legal.

                              I like learning new ways to hack the system.

                              Unnamed Hero - PL 10

                              Strength 19, Stamina 0, Agility 0, Dexterity 0, Fighting 0, Intellect 0, Awareness 0, Presence 0

                              Powers
                              Strength Effect (Accurate 3: +6)
                              . . Affliction: Cone Area Affliction 11 (Alternate; 1st degree: ..., ; Cone Area: 60 feet cone, DC 21)

                              Offense
                              Affliction: Cone Area Affliction 11 (DC Will 20)

                              Power Points
                              Abilities 38 + Powers 4 + Advantages 0 + Skills 0 (0 ranks) + Defenses 0 = 42

                              The affliction costs 22 points outside this framework.

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