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Can Increased Mass be applied to Move Object?

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  • Can Increased Mass be applied to Move Object?

    Title explains it all


    https://www.d20herosrd.com/6-powers/...bject-control/

    https://www.d20herosrd.com/6-powers/modifiers/
    Last edited by Dread Reaper; 05-26-2019, 02:27 PM.

  • #2
    I don't think so. What you'd be looking for is getting more ranks of Move Object.
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    • #3
      No, Move Object is just Strength, ranged, limited: does no damage. Just buy more ranks to be able to life more.

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      • #4
        Actually I think it may. We see something similar in the Illusion Area extra which was a +1 extra but increased the AoE of Illusion which would normally be equal to the ranks in Illusion effect alongside it's DC. And while it's easy to say "Just buy more ranks" it's not always possible, and no, not because of attempts to shave points. It may just be that the Move Object effect is at it's PL cap.

        Given how Move Object works and how it breaks down I don't see too big a problem with extra mass increasing it. While it is non-damaging strength with range it isn't power lifting with range. The difference is rather large. Move Object can do things like Grab, throw, trip, etc. this means it has DCs, and it has PL Caps to worry about, most move object used in a fight is going to be an application of one of these effects if not just be damaging move object. Basically there's a lot Move Object does besides lifting heavy things to the point that said lifting is just a fractional part of it's price. Allowing Extra Mass to increase that doesn't seem like it's worth much opposition, especially when the alternative is getting wonky with partial modifiers and shifting around PL caps.
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        • #5
          Illusion is stupid. But we aren't discussing that. Illusion actually says you can increase the volume by adding ranks AND by adding the Area extra.

          Move Object doesn't say that. Area on Move Object just means you can effect objects in a large area up to your weight limit determined by ranks in MO. Also, you can always use Stacks With and "lifting only" with MO:

          Teke MO 5, (1,600 lbs) 10 PP
          Lift only Teke MO 5 Stacks with Teke, Limited: Only for lifting. (25 tons) 5 PP

          At PL10, you could have +15 on the attack roll with the base Teke power. As long as the target is less than 1600 lbs, if you hit, you pick them up. You could also pick up an unattended truck.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by jmucchiello View Post
            Illusion is stupid. But we aren't discussing that. Illusion actually says you can increase the volume by adding ranks AND by adding the Area extra.

            Move Object doesn't say that. Area on Move Object just means you can effect objects in a large area up to your weight limit determined by ranks in MO. Also, you can always use Stacks With and "lifting only" with MO:

            Teke MO 5, (1,600 lbs) 10 PP
            Lift only Teke MO 5 Stacks with Teke, Limited: Only for lifting. (25 tons) 5 PP

            At PL10, you could have +15 on the attack roll with the base Teke power. As long as the target is less than 1600 lbs, if you hit, you pick them up. You could also pick up an unattended truck.
            I brought up illusion because it's an existing effect that has a similar situation, DC and Mass/area being tied to ranks with a solution of "buy the extra" for how to purchase more ranks of the are it effects rather than purchasing more ranks.

            The thing you built for an example is more clunky (being an additional power, requiring a limit, and having to stack on top of another power) just for the same cost of just purchasing Extra Mass extra but with the added benefit of confusing building programs, GMs, and also shorting out under the circumstances when you are trying to affect large characters as well as making it less accurate in other situations. it's easier and more intuitive to just tack on the extra mass extra.
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            • #7
              It only has the same cost because MO happens to have 2 ppr.

              And it is counter-intuitive to have two different ways to affect the mass of the effect. Extra Mass if for effects where mass is static. Base Teleportation lets you bring 50 lbs of extra mass. Period. You use to Extra Mass extra to modify the base effect. Move Object already has a mechanism for adding extra mass. Why allow another one as well?

              Remember, I said Illusion is stupid and the reason was because of the two ways to affect the area. Illusion should just affect one 5 foot cube by default and Area should be bought to increase the area. Ranks in Illusion should only affect the DC to see through the illusion. Using the volume chart on Illusion is just silly. 10 Ranks of Illusion gets you 1,000 cu ft. That is smaller than many modern house bedrooms. Frankly, I think it uses the volume chart only so SOMETHING would use the volume chart. (Illusion should also be cheaper since it is so ineffective in practice for the most part: 2 PPR for sight and sound (-1 for no audio component, -2 for no visual component, +1 for tactile component, +1 for olfactory component). But that's just me. YMMV.)

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              • #8
                Originally posted by jmucchiello View Post
                Remember, I said Illusion is stupid and the reason was because of the two ways to affect the area. Illusion should just affect one 5 foot cube by default and Area should be bought to increase the area. Ranks in Illusion should only affect the DC to see through the illusion. Using the volume chart on Illusion is just silly. 10 Ranks of Illusion gets you 1,000 cu ft. That is smaller than many modern house bedrooms. Frankly, I think it uses the volume chart only so SOMETHING would use the volume chart. (Illusion should also be cheaper since it is so ineffective in practice for the most part: 2 PPR for sight and sound (-1 for no audio component, -2 for no visual component, +1 for tactile component, +1 for olfactory component). But that's just me. YMMV.)
                The problem with that is that it would make it impossible to make a strong illusion even remotely effective in size if you're using Vol ranks instead of just stating a normal area size (technically Illusion is Perception area as well as range but the vol is just the size of the illusion itself). There are also other effects that have their ranks effect both their DC and size. Create creates a mass of toughness but it's rank also denotes it's size and has a modifier to trade one for the other. Transform also has a DC to resist it (though that's a rather odd one since apparently you could use it's ranks to simulate an affliction based on what you're transforming) and it's volume depends on it's rank as well. Weaken is also similar though one I disagree with since it's rank determines both it's DC and the maximum amount of points it can decrease (meaning no mater how many times you hit and succeed with a 5 rank weaken it can only lower 5pp total).
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                • #9
                  I said using volume ranks is stupid. Why are you agreeing with me negatively?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by jmucchiello View Post
                    I said using volume ranks is stupid. Why are you agreeing with me negatively?
                    Because it isn't about Vol ranks but the fact that the system does make a habit of tying both DC and other key parts of a power to it's rank and several powers have modifiers that alter that. Illusion has it's Area modifier further increasing it's AoE and create can trade toughness for Mass as a flaw. It shows there is precedent for there to be modifiers to boost the more utility part of an effect while keeping the DC for actual attacks untouched.
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                    • #11
                      I think Strength is the better power to compare against when discussing Move Object and Power Lifting is a standard limitation for it.

                      Also, read the first part of Increased Mass Extra: "This modifier may apply to an effect that allows you to carry or affect a set amount of mass, typically a movement effect like Dimensional Travel or Teleport."

                      As I said, the extra is for powers where the mass effect is "a set amount". MO is not a set amount, it varies by rank.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by jmucchiello View Post
                        I think Strength is the better power to compare against when discussing Move Object and Power Lifting is a standard limitation for it.

                        Also, read the first part of Increased Mass Extra: "This modifier may apply to an effect that allows you to carry or affect a set amount of mass, typically a movement effect like Dimensional Travel or Teleport."

                        As I said, the extra is for powers where the mass effect is "a set amount". MO is not a set amount, it varies by rank.
                        The thing is that it doesn't really follow Power Lifting since Power Lifting is just lifting, and as I said before with how Move Object works it does a hell of a lot more than that making the "Lifting" part just a fraction of a PP in it's cost per rank. And while that is the stated way that Increased mass normally works MnM has show various times that minor changes can be done to change how these minor features are interpreted if it still fits the basics of it's concept. Like how subtle makes the creations harder to tell if they're real or fake or how precise teleport functions like it's selective. Either way the benefits of just being able to lift an extra ranks worth of mass is minor, like 1pp feature minor.
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                        • #13
                          I think...

                          Move Object # plus Move Object #, Limited to Lifting

                          So you do minimal Damage if you pick up a heavy object and lift something, essentially this means you can lift a lot of weight slowly.

                          Since you don't deal Damage directly with Move Object, my suggestion might be too cheap.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Kimera757 View Post
                            Move Object # plus Move Object #, Limited to Lifting

                            Since you don't deal Damage directly with Move Object, my suggestion might be too cheap.
                            I think this would actually be: MO, Damaging plus MO

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                            • #15
                              "Limited to Lifting" would be an appropriate way to handle this. This would mean that the extra Limited ranks of Move Object would not increase the difficulty of any resistance checks for grappling.

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