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Buying over the PL limit or not? Create Object: -1 Proportional

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  • Buying over the PL limit or not? Create Object: -1 Proportional

    In M&M, one is not allowed to buy a power that gives a character more than a PL bonus to, say attack, or defense, or what have you. I know trade offs can affect this, but for now I want to keep this simple and ignore trade offs.

    I'm looking at the Create power and I see a Flaw called "Proportional". This makes it so that the Toughness and Volume ranks of any use of the power must add up to no more than the power's rank. If the PL of the campaign I'm in is 10, and I buy Create: -1 Proportional at rank 15, I could use it to make a box with volume 1 and toughness 14. This violates the PL rule.

    Am I forbidden from buying Create at this rank or just forbidden from using it past PL?

    Thanks in advance
    Man Drake

  • #2
    First, Create is normally only an attack effect when used to entrap a target (the object's volume & toughness alone are not subject to PL). While the effect's ranks define DC (which is of course subject to PL), I'd simply cap the effective DC at PL, even if the ranks exceed PL (when not taking tradeoffs into account).
    Second, in the case of Proportional Create I'd set the effective DC at 10 + HALF rank.
    Third, I'm quite fond of the Proportional extra, and from my experience it's mostly used to create really BIG objects (think Elsa's ice castle in Disney's Frozen), so volume is usually prioritized over toughness. If the other option (low volume high toughness) should prove to be a problem, then I'd cap the maximum toughness score in relation to PL.
    https://roninarmy.com/forum/atomic-think-tank/roll-call/7149-bothrops-pit#post7149

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    • #3
      Thanks Bothrops.

      I like what I'm reading, I can buy as much as I want, I just can't have any more effectiveness than PL. Cool!

      I forgot to mention that I was mostly intending to use this to create "Force Objects". Specifically, Invisible force bubbles around me and friends as a physical force field to stop movement and require that it be broken etc. to get at us. I was assuming that it would be limited to PL since I was using it like a Protection type power.

      1) I get the logic of DC = 10 + (Rank/2), but shouldn't that be DC = 10 + (Volume Rank/2)? The bigger I make it the higher the DC? (with a cap of 10 + PL)

      Also,

      2) Upon re-reading the capture bit, I see it says I both have to roll to hit AND they get to roll a Dodge save. I would have thought it would be treated like a regular Area attack, that is, no attack needed, just Dodge saves for those who are in the area when I Create the bubble. I looked up Area Extra for powers in 3E and it hasn't changed from 2E. I looked up Create object in 2E and for trapping it is just saves for victims with no attack roll. Do you think this is an error for Create in 3E or did something else change?

      Thanks

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Man Drake View Post
        Thanks Bothrops.

        I like what I'm reading, I can buy as much as I want, I just can't have any more effectiveness than PL. Cool!

        I forgot to mention that I was mostly intending to use this to create "Force Objects". Specifically, Invisible force bubbles around me and friends as a physical force field to stop movement and require that it be broken etc. to get at us. I was assuming that it would be limited to PL since I was using it like a Protection type power.
        Not so fast. Yes, high ranked Create is normally unproblematic when used to make obstacles/barriers to take cover behind. But employing this effect to make a personal "deflector shield" that moves with the character (Tether extra!) & allows the latter shooting through it (Selective extra!), is a major red flag for a GM (because it's abusive). Sample power:
        Deflector Shield
        Close Range Create 6 (Limited to personal bubble [-2], Selective, Subtle 2, Tether); 6 points

        That said, I'd allow this power as GM, but add its rank to the character's Toughness & Fortitude scores when calculating PL. This essentially means the hero has a formidable defense, but is very vulnerable against attacks capable of bypassing the shield (a Perception Range attack, for example).


        1) I get the logic of DC = 10 + (Rank/2), but shouldn't that be DC = 10 + (Volume Rank/2)? The bigger I make it the higher the DC? (with a cap of 10 + PL)
        You definitely have a point here - the bigger the "cage" the harder to avoid it. So it makes sense to base the DC on volume, but cap it to stay within PL.


        2) Upon re-reading the capture bit, I see it says I both have to roll to hit AND they get to roll a Dodge save. I would have thought it would be treated like a regular Area attack, that is, no attack needed, just Dodge saves for those who are in the area when I Create the bubble. I looked up Area Extra for powers in 3E and it hasn't changed from 2E. I looked up Create object in 2E and for trapping it is just saves for victims with no attack roll. Do you think this is an error for Create in 3E or did something else change?
        I don't think it's an error, but IMHO they haven't thought about really big objects capable of entrapping multiple targets at once. Therefore, I'd recommend using the rules presented in Power Profiles ("Size & Area Effects"; page 160).

        https://roninarmy.com/forum/atomic-think-tank/roll-call/7149-bothrops-pit#post7149

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Bothrops View Post
          Not so fast. Yes, high ranked Create is normally unproblematic when used to make obstacles/barriers to take cover behind. But employing this effect to make a personal "deflector shield" that moves with the character (Tether extra!) & allows the latter shooting through it (Selective extra!), is a major red flag for a GM (because it's abusive). Sample power:
          Deflector Shield
          Close Range Create 6 (Limited to personal bubble [-2], Selective, Subtle 2, Tether); 6 points
          What? There is nothing in Create that says it can provide anybody Toughness. Objects created have Toughness but they are still objects. They provide cover/concealment only, not bonuses to Toughness. If you want a bonus to Toughness you need to buy a linked Protection effect.

          That said, I'd allow this power as GM, but add its rank to the character's Toughness & Fortitude scores when calculating PL. This essentially means the hero has a formidable defense, but is very vulnerable against attacks capable of bypassing the shield (a Perception Range attack, for example).
          Why would it add to Fortitude? Nothing in Create says it affects Fortitude at all.


          I don't think it's an error, but IMHO they haven't thought about really big objects capable of entrapping multiple targets at once. Therefore, I'd recommend using the rules presented in Power Profiles ("Size & Area Effects"; page 160).
          Well, the real inconsistency is under dropping objects on people, where the effect suggested is Area Damage. I think the rules under Trapping Under should be more like the rules under Dropping Things On. But that's just an opinion.

          Comment


          • #6
            Jeez, where did I say that Create provides a bonus to Toughness or Fortitude?
            The topic was about using Create to make a protective bubble around the hero, that moves with him & can be ignored selectively (for letting through one's own attacks). This provides ZERO bonuses to the hero, but any attack not capable of bypassing the barrier must first completely destroy it, before the hero can even be hit. And the latter can fully repair/recreate it with a simple standard action.
            This construct is highly abusive (at least when combined with fully capped normal defenses), so it's a known red flag for GMs.
            My condition for allowing such a power as a GM, is enforcing a lower (sub-PL) rank for the PC's natural Toughness & Fortitude, to make the build balanced again. That's what I meant with "adding the rank to Toughness & Fortitude for calculating PL" - that's no actual bonus at all. The reason for also limiting Fortitude is because most Fort-based attacks can be blocked by a physical barrier.
            Example:
            PL 10
            Deflector Shield 6
            Dodge & Parry 7
            Will 9
            Fortitude 5
            Toughness 7
            The latter 2 cannot be higher, or else PL is violated.
            Now understood?
            https://roninarmy.com/forum/atomic-think-tank/roll-call/7149-bothrops-pit#post7149

            Comment


            • #7
              jmucchiello:
              Iagree that I would expect consistency between Trapping In and Dropping On. They should both be Area attacks. It seems that the Trapping In entry is the outlier for Create, and the only reference to making a specific attack roll for an Area effect I have ever seen in M&M 2E or 3E. Strange.

              Bothrops:
              Yes your Deflector Shield is what I was thinking of. That's why I assumed I could not even Buy more than a "suitable by PL, for my character's Toughness" rank of the power.

              I want to use the Create power as the base power in a Dynamic Array, so I am happy to hear I can buy more ranks and create a larger pool of base points to spend on more than one dynamic power in the array that I will want up at one time, and just limit my self on various uses of Create to "PL Legal" ranks. With Proportional, I can even bleed off the "extra" ranks to Size or Toughness, whichever is not a PL problem.

              Thanks for the reference to Power Profiles Size powers. I hadn't read that part yet. I did understand the concept of 50 foot monsters using Area attack when stomping on people from 2E. The math suggested in the section will be helpful.

              1)Just to be clear, If the Attack of a trapping use of Create is within PL, the Toughness can be as high as I have ranks left over for right? No rule stopping me from trapping someone in a cage that's got higher Toughness than PL?

              Thanks
              ManDrake
              Last edited by Man Drake; 05-16-2019, 03:36 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Man Drake View Post
                1)Just to be clear, If the Attack of a trapping use of Create is within PL, the Toughness can be as high as I have ranks left over for right? No rule stopping me from trapping someone in a cage that's got higher Toughness than PL?
                That I'm not sure of. The object has no dodge/parry. So it should not exceed PL. Create should only be able to exceed PL when you use it to hit someone with an object and as we discussed, hitting someone with a created object should be an Area effect, which should not an attack roll and thus should be restricted to PL.

                That feels more circular writing it than it does reading it, I hope.

                Bothrops: Now I see where you are coming from. Create should probably be limited to PL most of the time. But I don't think the power itself needs to be so limited. Just whenever the power should be limited, the user cannot use any of the additional ranks.

                Comment


                • #9
                  jmucchiello:
                  You are talking about an area attack by Dropping, which I agree, since it effectively a Perception attack, the damage bonus, or in other words the Toughness Save can't go above PL.

                  I was talking about a Trapping use. So I was saying that as long as the trapping attempt's Dodge Save DC was according to PL, the Toughness of the container they are trapped in could be as high as I have ranks left over for, as the Toughness of the cage does not impose a save of any sort, nor is it an attack vs. Dodge/Parry.



                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Man Drake View Post
                    I was talking about a Trapping use. So I was saying that as long as the trapping attempt's Dodge Save DC was according to PL, the Toughness of the container they are trapped in could be as high as I have ranks left over for, as the Toughness of the cage does not impose a save of any sort, nor is it an attack vs. Dodge/Parry.
                    Generally in M&M, things that do not have a defense roll (area attacks, perception attacks), are limited to Power Level in rank.

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