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  • Artificer/ Ritualist difference?

    Sooo...with Artificer i can create magical inventions, thus one-use-devices. With Ritualist i can make magical rituals to create magical inventions, thus one-use-devices. What is the difference Oo?

    Edit: Ok, seems ive got it.

    Artificer:
    Design: DC10+Cost with Expertise: Magic. Hours x PP
    Construction: DC10+Cost routine check. 4 Hours x PP

    Ritualist:
    Preparation: 4 Hours x PP
    Execution: 10 Mins x PP

    Also, i guess rituals wont create portable objects but rather effects right there and then.
    Last edited by Kasseopea; 03-08-2015, 01:30 PM.

  • #2
    Re: Artificer/ Ritualist difference?

    Originally posted by Kasseopea View Post
    Sooo...with Artificer i can create magical inventions, thus one-use-devices. With Ritualist i can make magical rituals to create magical inventions, thus one-use-devices. What is the difference Oo?
    From the gadget guide : The primary difference is that artifacts invest effects into an object or device whereas rituals, while they might have props or components, create effects independent of such things. So a magical charm is an artifact, as is a potion, enchanted weapon, or handful of sand that causes a magical effect. A readied ritual, on the other hand, can create an effect with just a word or gesture, more like a character’s own powers than a removable device.

    Hope it helps

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    • #3
      Re: Artificer/ Ritualist difference?

      I think the most important difference between the two is that an Inventor can possibly share his Invention with someone else (unless he decides to not be able of doing so, which is done via descriptor) as well as store it for a later scene, while a Ritual can only ever be used by the Ritualist himself (who also needs a Benefit Advantage to store it for later use). Both differences are explained in more detail in the gadget guides.

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      • #4
        Re: Artificer/ Ritualist difference?

        Originally posted by Kasseopea View Post
        Also, i guess rituals wont create portable objects but rather effects right there and then.
        Originally posted by Gorakar View Post
        I think the most important difference between the two is that an Inventor can possibly share his Invention with someone else (unless he decides to not be able of doing so, which is done via descriptor) as well as store it for a later scene, while a Ritual can only ever be used by the Ritualist himself (who also needs a Benefit Advantage to store it for later use). Both differences are explained in more detail in the gadget guides.
        A Ritual could also involve a Trigger of some kind (1p, or 2p for Variable) and made usable by another subject for no additional net cost, creating a spell that would only occur under specific circumstances but without the need of some physical focus. Once triggered, it would last as long as maintained, or until the scene ends.
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        • #5
          Re: Artificer/ Ritualist difference?

          Problem with Rituals is though, that you need 10mins x PP on execution, so they are utterly useless in any combat situation. Even a healing ritual would be useless, since by the time its through, your patients either died or shook off the damage on their own.

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          • #6
            Re: Artificer/ Ritualist difference?

            Originally posted by Kasseopea View Post
            Problem with Rituals is though, that you need 10mins x PP on execution, so they are utterly useless in any combat situation. Even a healing ritual would be useless, since by the time its through, your patients either died or shook off the damage on their own.
            Unless you include a Trigger, which admittedly requires some planning or at least a little foresight into what might happen. You can also jury-rig just like an invention, needing only a HP and rounds equal to point cost, which could theoretically occur during combat but would require some kind of cover to avoid interference.
            My old [URL="http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?p=743877#p743877"]Atomic Think Tank[/URL] thread
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            • #7
              Re: Artificer/ Ritualist difference?

              Originally posted by JDRook View Post
              Unless you include a Trigger, which admittedly requires some planning or at least a little foresight into what might happen. You can also jury-rig just like an invention, needing only a HP and rounds equal to point cost, which could theoretically occur during combat but would require some kind of cover to avoid interference.
              Yeah, but then you can basically create like 20 rituals for every occasion. That is pretty cheap. Also - it still wouldn't be mobile. Could work for Traps, but thats "Deathtraps" or "Defense Systems" for the HQ and not of much use anywhere else. I just dont see any situation it could be actually useful. + The fact that it takes days to prepare for each single one.

              The checks are the same as for Artificer and it seems to me that Ritual is just inferior in every instance.

              I.e. my character has some NPCs who are rather weak and under his protection, so he made Necklaces which, when broken or torn teleport them back to a certain safe spot. (I might want to add the "if incapacitated" trigger as well as some for paralyzed and controlled though X_X).

              Jury-Rigging is just as useless - oh, yeah, let me bring down the wrath of the skies with a massive AoE Blast, i will only need like 40-60 rounds and make a 55-75 DC with my Magic-Skill, no problem at all m8.
              Last edited by Kasseopea; 03-09-2015, 09:53 AM.

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              • #8
                Re: Artificer/ Ritualist difference?

                Originally posted by Kasseopea View Post
                Yeah, but then you can basically create like 20 rituals for every occasion. That is pretty cheap. Also - it still wouldn't be mobile. Could work for Traps, but thats "Deathtraps" or "Defense Systems" for the HQ and not of much use anywhere else. I just dont see any situation it could be actually useful. + The fact that it takes days to prepare for each single one.

                The checks are the same as for Artificer and it seems to me that Ritual is just inferior in every instance.
                I think part of the problem is that you seem to be thinking of Ritual as magic circle, which is certainly one form it could take.

                Ritual is basically spell casting on the fly (with some prep = design/research, unless you are reusing a ritual that you designed earlier) and a possibility (but no requirement for) of ingredients. Inventor and artificer are pretty much guaranteed to have a material component and ingredients or parts required where a ritual might or might not.

                A ritual could be executed by a magic dance (think tribal rain dances), marking runes (permanently or just with your hands) in the air or on an object, an incantation, etc just like most magic powers in the system. Artifacts and inventions have the advantage of being more of a physical object (talisman, potion, etc.) that is easier to prepare ahead of time and take with you, but like all devices can be taken away from you or destroyed before you can use it. Rituals can be disrupted while you are performing them, just as if someone broke into your lab while you are building your invention or artifact, but don't usually have a physical component to steal or destroy after they are cast either.

                A lot of it is that Ritualist is basically Inventor/Artificer with some of the (likelihood of) component cost removed and with removable removed from it for the same cost. When you have something similar with 1 1/2 flaws removed for the same cost, yes it gets weaken in some ways.

                Originally posted by Kasseopea View Post
                Jury-Rigging is just as useless - oh, yeah, let me bring down the wrath of the skies with a massive AoE Blast, i will only need like 40-60 rounds and make a 55-75 DC with my Magic-Skill, no problem at all m8.
                This is really a better case for an AE through extra effort and/or spending a HP than a ritual. You could however design a small PP ritual (yes, or potion) as an energetic healing to counter that fatigue if you are out of HPs. Remember that there are lots of effects that are cheap in game too (speed, environment effects , etc.) that you could do as a ritual for fairly low cost.

                While it might be an abuse of the system at times, a 1PP ritual could potentially be used for the 1PP needed for an AE off of an existing power that is thematically similar enough to what you need as well or to boost an existing power (10 PP ritual to turn a damage 10 effect into an Area Damage 10 effect for example)

                Depending on how magic works in the setting (all up to the GM), certain effects may make a lot more sense to allow for a ritual that might not be available with an artifact as well (yes this could go both ways).
                Last edited by digitalangel; 03-09-2015, 10:22 AM.
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                • #9
                  Re: Artificer/ Ritualist difference?

                  Using Ritualist, etc. for an AE is something that I hadn't thought of before. As DigitalAngel notes, it's used with some caution and to thematically-similar abilities.

                  I can say with some experience that even a few points worth of powers, provided "on the fly" or nearly so, can be extremely useful. There's a few Senses, Immunities, or Movement powers that come to mind that are great in particular circumstances. But, it's probably not the sort of thing you'll be using all the time.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Artificer/ Ritualist difference?

                    Originally posted by digitalangel View Post
                    Rituals can be disrupted while you are performing them, just as if someone broke into your lab while you are building your invention or artifact, but don't usually have a physical component to steal or destroy after they are cast either.
                    Example of this happened in my gaming session tonight. My character was working up a ritual, using Quickness to get through it in two rounds, when he was attacked. He was putting together a somewhat large magical circle and the attack was composed of missiles filled with a goo designed to stop and trap him in a snare. He made his resistance rolls so the GM said he was safe while the goo landed all around him and solidified. I asked the GM if all this goop everywhere was going to interfere with the magical circle and after a few moments the GM said it would. I had to ask to spend a hero point to re-write how the defense took place in order to keep the ritual going. Lucky enough my dodge/parry defenses are actually an effect(little wind spirits deflecting attacks) so I was able to say the spirits were effective enough in defending me that they were able to deflect the missiles before they released the goo nearby, saving my ritual from being interrupted.



                    This is really a better case for an AE through extra effort and/or spending a HP than a ritual. You could however design a small PP ritual (yes, or potion) as an energetic healing to counter that fatigue if you are out of HPs. Remember that there are lots of effects that are cheap in game too (speed, environment effects , etc.) that you could do as a ritual for fairly low cost.

                    While it might be an abuse of the system at times, a 1PP ritual could potentially be used for the 1PP needed for an AE off of an existing power that is thematically similar enough to what you need as well or to boost an existing power (10 PP ritual to turn a damage 10 effect into an Area Damage 10 effect for example)
                    I've used ritualist to boost other effects, same with artificing. While technically using it to give that extra point to do an AE might work, that sounds like somewhat of a waste of time when extra effort would work just as well. It doesn't really seem like much of an abuse in that sense, more like a time consuming way around something.

                    My current game has the characters at PL20. I've been learning that at that PL there's a lot of small stuff we can hand-wave away using Ritualist, Artificer, and Inventor. My group was able to heal a devastated small army, repair their base, and fix/upgrade their weaponry(including vehicles) in about a day or two when most other games I've played would've required us to spend weeks trying to work it out. I thought it was a bit crazy at first, but it seemed within reason when compared to some of the stuff I've seen done in comics. It's actually helped us move the narrative along quite nicely, and while the GM has had to adapt a little bit to our speed and versatility it's working quite well. Combat is the only time when things get dicey and difficult.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Artificer/ Ritualist difference?

                      I wouldn't allow using a ritual or artifact to get 1pp AE. I interpret this as an attempt to get a large ritual/artifact while only spending a few hours, or an attempt to spend a few hours to get an AE (which can be turned on and off at will throughout the scene, unlike power stunts) without paying for extra effort. Like all things which attempt to get something for nothing or very little, or respect the letter of the law but violate the spirit of the law, I consider this abusive play and wouldn't allow it in my games. Same with the idea of creating a potion of energizing healing -- although even if allowed, it would not actually cure your Fatigue, since you are the user of the effect and you explicitly cannot use energizing healing to eliminate your own fatigue.

                      I do agree that rituals and artifacts (and invention) are impractical and as GM I'd never bother actually defining how many hours Daedalus has to build his mind shield device before going up against Lady Lunar. I'm considering a house rule where artificer/inventor allows you to, once per adventure, spend 1 HP and instantly get, say, half your skill bonus rounded down in pp. You just instantly pull out your brilliant invention, which you built off-screen/had all along/were saving for this moment/someone tosses to you in the nick of time. I'd probably also add something where you can make a skill check on top of spending the HP to get additional pp in the artifact/invention.
                      Last edited by Ysariel; 03-14-2015, 06:09 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Artificer/ Ritualist difference?

                        I think that there's room also to start the adventure with some reasonable amount of one-shot inventions available. So the guy with Inventor might start out with 10 pp of one-shot equipment, presumed to be built between adventures, before he heads out. That's enough for a hold-out weapon or a backup escape, but not enough to really impact the game too severely.
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                        • #13
                          Re: Artificer/ Ritualist difference?

                          In that case, though, you basically turn invention into a feat that gives 10 variable ep no matter what. I'd prefer something that 1) is dependent on the character's skill ranks, such that higher skilled characters produce more powerful inventions and 2) is limited by frequency (unlike the current system, which is limited by time spent out of combat and access to facilities such as a workshop) such that inventions are rare but powerful; I prefer rare but powerful over common and mundane.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Artificer/ Ritualist difference?

                            It's weaker than a straight 10 EP of equipment because all of it is strictly one-use only. Instead of having a gun which you can fire off as many times as you want to during the adventure, you have an EMP canister which works once, or a Morph effect that will only work for the one scene.

                            But yes, it would make more sense to have it dependent on one's skill level.
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