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  • Question About Mist...

    So I'm tediously working on the characters for my group (if you've seen my previous posts, you'll know that I am building their power sets as the series is based on the pc's discovering they have powers).

    I have the Water Power Profile, and for Mist it has the following:

    You can fill the air with condensing water vapor, creating a heavy mist that obscures vision. This power may also
    be able to counteract water-based mist or fog (natural orcreated by other powers) as a countering effect.
    Mist: Environment (Limited Visibility) 2 points per rank.

    If the aim is to create a cloud that encompasses the entire group, would I add the Affects Others and Range modifiers? Also, it would be a Cloud or Burst shape, would it not? Adding another ppr? The description is not specific about the Perception penalty, but since it's going with Environment (vs Concealment), I'm thinking it would be the full -5 since it's 2ppr.

    Any thoughts? Am I understanding this correctly?

  • #2
    Re: Question About Mist...

    All Environment effects are by default Burst Area, but with GM permission you could swap it with another Area effect for no change in cost, e.g. a Light effect in the shape of a Cone. a "cloud" of mist doesn't need a change since burst area gets the job done and Cloud Area isn't helpful here since you're not using something like Damage or Affliction where you need the Secondary Effect component of Cloud Area.

    The 2pp Limited Visibility is a -5 penalty to Perception checks.

    Environment is centered on you, so technically, if you have enough area, you don't need range. You wouldn't need Affects Others since it's an area effect and effects everyone within it.
    Penny's Build Party - Playable builds - M&M 2.5 featuring Damage Roll combat

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    • #3
      Re: Question About Mist...

      First off - the counteract part requires an alternate effect, which will then be Nullify. Costs you 1PP more and will allow you to switch between those two effects. If you want to create it somewhere but not around you, you can pick "indirect" that would allow you to place it somewhere else.

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      • #4
        Re: Question About Mist...

        Originally posted by Battleforger View Post
        First off - the counteract part requires an alternate effect, which will then be Nullify. Costs you 1PP more and will allow you to switch between those two effects. If you want to create it somewhere but not around you, you can pick "indirect" that would allow you to place it somewhere else.
        The counteract part is just using the ability as a regular counter descriptor. It has nothing to do with the nullify power. The mist descriptor can be used to counter.
        "Reverting to name calling suggests you are defensive and therefore find my opinion valid," Spock, Into Darkness.

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        • #5
          Re: Question About Mist...

          Originally posted by badpenny View Post
          Environment is centered on you, so technically, if you have enough area, you don't need range. You wouldn't need Affects Others since it's an area effect and effects everyone within it.
          To elaborate, you would only need Affects Others if the people you were affecting could take the effect and move outside of the area with it. In this case, that would be like taking pieces of the mist cloud with them, which doesn't really fit concept.
          My old [URL="http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?p=743877#p743877"]Atomic Think Tank[/URL] thread
          My current character thread: [URL="https://roninarmy.com/threads/6194-The-Sound-of-My-Eyebeams-JDRook-s-builds-and-blather?p=233536&viewfull=1#post233536"]The Sound of my Eyebeams[/URL][URL="http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?p=743877#p743877"]
          [/URL]
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          • #6
            Re: Question About Mist...

            Originally posted by Monolith View Post
            The counteract part is just using the ability as a regular counter descriptor. It has nothing to do with the nullify power. The mist descriptor can be used to counter.
            There is a difference though - if you counter it with the "Omg a flamethrower, lets shoot my water bazooka to counter it" it will only stop it for one round. Also you would have to have a reaction action to actually counter it (so drag your turn out so you can react once it is activated).

            It is not a viable long-term solution. Lets say its a poison mist - while you could counter it each turn, you would have to take a standard action each turn to do so, while your enemy could easily have the power as a concentration/sustained/continuous.

            If you want to actually drive something away and replace it with your mist, i would suggest Nullify, since thats what this power is made for. The 1PP extra cost isnt that dramatic, but its your choice, whether you want to have a reliable counter or just a fairly weak ointment. You should also not forget that its an opposed check of your effect's rank + 1d20 and the enemies effect's rank + 1d20. With a 2pp environment you will most probably always loose.

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            • #7
              Re: Question About Mist...

              Nullify is also an instant effect that must use a standard action each round. At the end of the day whether you counter the fog with mist or nullify it with an alternate effect you still end up with a single round solution. The next round the person can bring the fog back up and you can attempt to counter/nullify it again. You might as well save the point for the ae and just go the counter route.
              "Reverting to name calling suggests you are defensive and therefore find my opinion valid," Spock, Into Darkness.

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              • #8
                Re: Question About Mist...

                Well, yes, Nullify is per default instant but you can increase the duration or make it contagious. You can actually modify it as a normal power. You can not increase the duration of the normal counter since its always instant and it will always work in only one way - that being a pushing against an attack and putting the user always in the defensive. I dont know where your hate for Nullify comes from to be honest. Saw your discussion on the other Nullify thread. Has it killed your dog or something?

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                • #9
                  Re: Question About Mist...

                  Originally posted by Battleforger View Post
                  Well, yes, Nullify is per default instant but you can increase the duration or make it contagious. You can actually modify it as a normal power. You can not increase the duration of the normal counter since its always instant and it will always work in only one way - that being a pushing against an attack and putting the user always in the defensive. I dont know where your hate for Nullify comes from to be honest. Saw your discussion on the other Nullify thread. Has it killed your dog or something?
                  Dude, you're the one who popped into the thread telling the OP to not use the power the way the description stated it could be used; and the way the rules also state it can be used. A counter maneuver is nothing but a free nullify everyone gets access to because of their powers opposing descriptors. There's no reason to buy it again when your descriptor gives it to you for free. This has nothing to do with liking or not liking nullify and all to do with understanding that counter and nullify are the same thing and that there's no reason mist needs to pay for nullify too unless you're wanting something broader then the free opposing descriptors version.
                  "Reverting to name calling suggests you are defensive and therefore find my opinion valid," Spock, Into Darkness.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Question About Mist...

                    Originally posted by Monolith View Post
                    Dude, you're the one who popped into the thread telling the OP to not use the power the way the description stated it could be used; and the way the rules also state it can be used. A counter maneuver is nothing but a free nullify everyone gets access to because of their powers opposing descriptors. There's no reason to buy it again when your descriptor gives it to you for free. This has nothing to do with liking or not liking nullify and all to do with understanding that counter and nullify are the same thing and that there's no reason mist needs to pay for nullify too unless you're wanting something broader then the free opposing descriptors version.
                    Well, because its ineffective^^ I mean, if someone writes "Im going to create a Lv1 blast effect and then use it to counter PL15 firecascades" then im going to tell him, that he has a pretty low chance at succeeding. If he wants his power to actually work, he has to use and upgrade it in a way that makes it possible.
                    Also, the GM can easily say that he cant counter most of the attacks its supposed to, because this fog has no real current or force. Its environmental. Personally i would never allow to counter a wildfire with some normal mist. It just doesnt have the magnitude to do so, which is shown in its costs of 2pp. Even if it would be a very, very difficult check, since the rank of the fire would be far higher. Same goes for enemy's fog. If its not "Environment" they are using, it will probably be around Rank10+. Thus winning the counter will be very difficult.

                    The character also wont be able to get rid of something existing - counter only works when you yourself are attacked.

                    So yeah, i would say that being able to actively counter effects is actually pretty important so you dont choke to death on the poison fog while failing at countering it with your 2pp mist.

                    That all aside from the fact that thats not how mist or fog work. They do not oppose each other, they mix. So - and again, my personal opinion - as a GM i would say that both exist at the same time in the same place, since both are gaseous and "Environment: Mist/Fog" has no active current to drive anything away. That would require a wind based power or - as already explained - Nullify, because thats what one tries to do.

                    The powers are rather simple to understand - you cant summon creatures with create, because there is summon. You cant metamorph someone with Transform, because there is Metamorph. You cant Nullify anything with anything, because thats what Nullify, alternate effect, power stunt and array are for.
                    Last edited by Battleforger; 12-13-2014, 08:06 AM.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Question About Mist...

                      Counter doesn't require you to only be attacked. There's a whole section on countering lingering and ongoing effects; such as using your water power to put out a house fire. The description of mist is clearly talking about those types of non-attack counters.

                      And yes, a rank 1 blast is going to have a hard time countering a rank 15, but that's why they get the 1d20 roll. The 1 rank can roll a 20 and the 15 rank can roll a 3. But a rank 1 nullify alternate effect isn't going to do any better.
                      Last edited by Monolith; 12-13-2014, 08:26 AM.
                      "Reverting to name calling suggests you are defensive and therefore find my opinion valid," Spock, Into Darkness.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Question About Mist...

                        Getting the feeling you act stupid on purpose. The Nullify doesnt have to be Rank 1, it has to cost the same (2pp).

                        So, Nullify Lv10 with Distracting, Fades, Increased Duration, Diminished Range Lv2 and Unreliable (5 uses) will cost 2pp. It will be a power that runs pretty quickly out of juice, but works for the time being. After it ran out of power one still can use the crappy counter version.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Question About Mist...

                          I understand that you have a position you wish to defend, but ad hoc "Flaws" on a power to drive down the cost, particularly ones picked on an AE that are unlikely to really have an effect since they're picked for the immediate situation, are unlikely to be approved by a GM.

                          And can you tone down the insults? We try to be civil around here. Doesn't always work, but we do try.
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                          • #14
                            Re: Question About Mist...

                            Originally posted by Battleforger View Post
                            Getting the feeling you act stupid on purpose. The Nullify doesnt have to be Rank 1, it has to cost the same (2pp).

                            So, Nullify Lv10 with Distracting, Fades, Increased Duration, Diminished Range Lv2 and Unreliable (5 uses) will cost 2pp. It will be a power that runs pretty quickly out of juice, but works for the time being. After it ran out of power one still can use the crappy counter version.
                            First off, don't make personal attacks on people simply because you were wrong in your initial post and are now too proud to admit that. The mist works perfectly fine as a counter and doesn't require anyone to buy nullify.

                            Second, nullify is limited to pl. It requires an attack roll and the opposing roll. So if you can only have a rank 1 blast the odds were you're limited to that due to pl, so nullify can't be more then 1 rank either.

                            Finally, if you tried to bring that flaw-encrusted nullify build into my game I would laugh you away from the table. That build's a perfect example of someone doing nothing but trying to outwit the game rules and point-crush the system.
                            Last edited by Monolith; 12-13-2014, 09:47 AM.
                            "Reverting to name calling suggests you are defensive and therefore find my opinion valid," Spock, Into Darkness.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Question About Mist...

                              Are you for real? It was not an insult. Ffs i said "You act stupid on purpose" - Jim Carrey acts stupid on purpose. Doesnt mean he is a stupid, does it?

                              Also - i were not wrong with my post. You cant spin powers around to use them the way you want them to work instead of they way they actually work according to the book. You want nullify an effect by countering it? Get the Nullify power. You are the one trying to twist the counter system that is supposed to work on the extremely rare occasion that two utterly opposing powers - i.e. Light and Dark, Water and Fire - meet on each other. What he wants is to counter a SIMILAR power. They do not negate each other and thus there is no point why it would actually work without any modification. Can you get poisoned on a misty morning by a gas? Can a different gaseous substance easily enter fog and mist?

                              Seriously, saying that fog counters other gases is like saying fire counters embers and avalanche countering a blizzard. Same descriptor. Whats so hard to grasp about it?

                              A clever GM knows the flaws of his player's powers and uses those to counter their powers. If someone i.e. would come up with a power that is too strong imho and has "unreliable 5 uses", i would simply bait him to use it or create multiple targets he would want to attack. If he has a distracting flaw, i would blindside him with an unexpected attack.

                              Never understood people who were too lazy to actually become creative in what they do and how they master, rather prohibiting tons of things (one GM i knew did so with regeneration, morph, summon, variable, transform, invisibility, duplication, growth, immortality, any luck-effects, and shapeshift, so he could "get rid of the stupid powergaming" in a goddamn SUPERHERO setting) than think around them and create a more complex play.

                              If one actually pokes where it hurts and shows the player that his flaws are actually flaws that make it more difficult to use a power and sometimes make it unsuitable for use at all, then the player wont pack it full of disadvantages she cant handle OR know that he will have to deal with them.

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