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  • Immunity vs Specific Extras

    Hey all. A debate I had inspired this topic, and I'm curious what the rest of you think.

    The topic started based off my dissatisfaction with how Area Affect Attacks are handled in the current edition. They're basically auto-hit attacks that you have no chance of avoiding, and the best you can do is hope to mitigate the damage a little with a decent Dodge roll. Evasion now only helps you get that half damage rather than letting you avoid the damage completely. It just doesn't seem to reflect the comic genre, where you can see characters like Nightwing flip out of the blast radius of a grenade and take no damage from it.

    My original thinking was to just house rule it and say that if you use a Move Action and are capable of either moving behind some cover or can move out of the blast radius, then a successful Dodge roll lets you avoid all of the damage of the Area Attack completely. But then I decided to see if it would be possible to handle this RAW, and I turned to Immunity.

    The idea would be to have an Immunity (Area Attacks) and then give it a limit where it requires and Acrobatics Check to avoid the damage, possibly throw in some kind of Limited to where it only works if you can move outside the radius of the attack. But that raises the question of what an Immunity to a specific Extra would entail.

    It isn't immunity to all Toughness Saves, nor is it Immunity even to a Very Common Power Descriptor. Every type of damage that doesn't have an Area Extra on it is avoided/resisted in the normal manner, so I don't know that the 80, 30, or 20 ranks is appropriate. At the same time, it's an immunity to all effects that do have that Extra. Furthermore, not all Extras are created equal, so an Immunity to Area Attacks might cost more than, say, Immunity to Multi-Attacks.

    Right now my best guess would be that Extras that are a Flat +1 would be Immunity 5, while Extras that are a +1 per rank would be Immunity 10. Immunity 5 covers common broad effects such as entrapment and alteration effects, as well as "particular Damage effects or descriptors" such as falling, fire, etc., while Immunity 10 covers "common power descriptors". To be extra conservative, making it a 20 rank Immunity might be appropriate.

    But it would seem to work well enough for my purposes. Make it cost 10 to 20 points, give it a Limit that "Must be able to move outside of blast radius", have it require a Skill Check, and/or make it require a Move action and it would seem to work just fine.

    Thoughts overall?
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  • #2
    Re: Immunity vs Specific Extras

    By book Immunity to Dodge based attacks is 40 PPs. (This is again confirmed in the Speed Power Profiles)
    Limited to Area Attacks would reduce it to 20 PPs.
    Check required (Dodge or Acrobatics both work) would further reduce that to 10 PPs.

    You may also want to take a look at Untouchable from the Speed Profiles and just add extra limits to it since covers all Dodge and Parry attacks that are not surprise attacks including all area attacks that your speed rank gives you enough distance to get out of as well as non-area attacks.
    Untouchable: Immunity 80 (Dodge and Parry based attacks),
    Concentration, Limited (not against surprise attacks or
    sufficiently large area effects); Reaction (when targeted by an
    attack) on Speed 1 • 30 points + 3 points per additional rank of
    Reaction on Speed.
    Last edited by digitalangel; 12-09-2014, 07:13 PM.
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    • #3
      Re: Immunity vs Specific Extras

      Did they change Check required? I thought that was a flat 1 to 5 reduction.

      So 20 points, maybe throw in another Limit about how you need to be capable of moving out of the effect radius, so you don't get anything goofy like being able to dodge a nuclear strike.

      Also, thoughts on general immunity to Extras?
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      • #4
        Re: Immunity vs Specific Extras

        Meh. There are certain AoEs that one can't exactly "dodge". Like, those Burst Area Mind Controls and other AoE Mental/Psychic stuff. So, that'd be something that's a Power Loss complication to get you some Hero Points.

        I'd likely write it up as:

        Immunity 40 (Dodge) [flaws: Limited (Area of Effects), Limited (Must Succeed on Dodge Check Normally)] would cost 10 points. Oh, and add in the Sustained modifier, because this definitely isn't a permanent effect.

        Check Required would be impractical in this situation, digitalangel. The Dodge/Acrobatics/whatever check would start at DC 51 with only a 1 PP discount. It would start at 51.

        Anyways, it's an interesting idea in concept, a flawed sort of Immunity, but I don't think I'd use it myself.

        I personally would just house ruling in a third rank of Evasion (only available for defense shifted characters, and even then for specific concepts) which does what Evasion used to do in 2e, but require two (or three) degrees of success instead of the one degree required in 2e.

        Or you could just have characters spend a HP to use Dodge as an "Instant Counter:. Because yes, you can do that. And frankly, with a Defense shifted character's likelihood of having a darn high Dodge, the Instant Counter is likely to work rather well, and has a thematic descriptor to it (that your "counter" is in fact you "reacting by ducking behind heavy cover to evade the blast"). This is what I'd use as a player, rather than spending HP on failed Toughness saves.

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        • #5
          Re: Immunity vs Specific Extras

          Originally posted by Ares View Post
          The topic started based off my dissatisfaction with how Area Affect Attacks are handled in the current edition. They're basically auto-hit attacks that you have no chance of avoiding, and the best you can do is hope to mitigate the damage a little with a decent Dodge roll. Evasion now only helps you get that half damage rather than letting you avoid the damage completely. It just doesn't seem to reflect the comic genre, where you can see characters like Nightwing flip out of the blast radius of a grenade and take no damage from it.
          You've already got some good advice from the others regarding useful Immunity options, so I'm going to go another route and question your thesis. That is, I don't think half Damage is as bad as you think it is.

          M&M Damage is more abstract than most systems. These are not hit points; you are not taking 5 points of Damage instead of 10, you are effectively dropping a whole degree of failure.

          Using Nightwing as an example, his official build is PL10 with Dodge 14 and Toughness 6 with Defensive Roll. Let's shoot at him with a tank cannon, a Range Burst Damage 10, generally the largest Area attack he would deal with in his setting. With his Evasion, he has +16 vs DC20 Dodge check, so he's going to make that on any roll better than a 3, or an 85% success rate. Now he rolls for resistance with +6 against Damage 5, which is also DC20. That explosion is strong enough to blow holes through an inch of steel, but on average it's not even going to Daze him (8 or less, 40%). It's likely he's going to take that -1 Toughness penalty, but otherwise it does not slow him down, and he can always use a Recovery Action or a Hero Point to get rid of that if it becomes an issue.

          Referring back to your comment, most grenades aren't as powerful; the basic one from the Handbook is Damage 5, which would drop to 2 on a successful save, or DC17 to resist. Again, not likely to do more than Bruise him.

          If anything, I think 3e Evasion would be better off operating like a Second Chance: Explosions, allowing a reroll if damage is taken.
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