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  • Feedback Flaw with "Alternate Saves"

    "FEEDBACK (-1 COST PER RANK)

    You suffer damage when a manifestation of your effect is damaged. This flaw only applies to effects with physical (or apparently physical) manifestations, such as Create, Illusion, or Summon, for example. If your power’s manifestation is damaged, make a resistance check against the attack’s damage rank, using your effect’s rank as the resistance check bonus. For example, if a manifestation of a rank 10 effect is attacked for damage 12, you must make a resistance check against damage 12 with a +10 bonus (the effect’s rank) in place of your normal Toughness."

    OK, what if I want to suffer feed back from other failed saves:Will, Fortitude, Dodge, Parry, etc?

    For example, I summon my HumongoBeest!
    This guy is tied to me by psychic thread, if he is mind controlled, so am I, if he is poisoned, so am I and if he is tripped, down I go.
    OK the last one is a stretch, but you get the idea.
    So, a flaw for each? Are they each worth a flaw? Perhaps Quirks? Perhaps any feedback save other than vs. Damage is worth a half flaw?
    Or there is always the Complication route, always tasty.

    Just wondering what y'all think.

  • #2
    Re: Feedback Flaw with "Alternate Saves"

    If you think your character is going to make a lot of saves from the thing being attacked with various powers I might give it a -2 flaw. I don't really see it being worth more then that. It's a bigger saving then just damage and you still get the chance to save. I really don't like giving something more then a -2 flaw because it becomes too cheap after that.
    "Reverting to name calling suggests you are defensive and therefore find my opinion valid," Spock, Into Darkness.

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    • #3
      Re: Feedback Flaw with "Alternate Saves"

      Look at the structure of the Side Effect Flaw. Feedback costs the same; there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to work it out with the GM.
      Penny's Build Party - Playable builds - M&M 2.5 featuring Damage Roll combat

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      • #4
        Re: Feedback Flaw with "Alternate Saves"

        Originally posted by Monolith View Post
        If you think your character is going to make a lot of saves from the thing being attacked with various powers I might give it a -2 flaw. I don't really see it being worth more then that. It's a bigger saving then just damage and you still get the chance to save. I really don't like giving something more then a -2 flaw because it becomes too cheap after that.
        Too cheap? Out of curiosity, is that a general rule for you,no more than -2 in Flaws on an Effect? Or is it this Flaw in particular that would be too good at more than -2?

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        • #5
          Re: Feedback Flaw with "Alternate Saves"

          Originally posted by ronyon View Post
          Too cheap? Out of curiosity, is that a general rule for you,no more than -2 in Flaws on an Effect? Or is it this Flaw in particular that would be too good at more than -2?
          Too cheap in that it makes the power inexpensive.

          Based on the presented rules a -1 flaw should affect the power by 50%: 50% less power, only works 50% of the time, etc. When you get in -2 you are talking about a power in the 75-80% affected range. Look at the example under quickness were a -2 flaw limits the entire power to only 1 thing it can work with out of an unlimited number.

          I can't imagine why I'd give something a -3 flaw: I can't imagine anything in the game being that limited by a single flaw as it would be nearly useless. While there might an a couple of -3 examples of them in the books somewhere they certainly don't come to my mind.
          "Reverting to name calling suggests you are defensive and therefore find my opinion valid," Spock, Into Darkness.

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          • #6
            Re: Feedback Flaw with "Alternate Saves"

            Originally posted by Monolith View Post
            I can't imagine why I'd give something a -3 flaw: I can't imagine anything in the game being that limited by a single flaw as it would be nearly useless. While there might an a couple of -3 examples of them in the books somewhere they certainly don't come to my mind.
            Possibly the Distress Signal in the Flight Rings for all of the LoSH characters in the Heroes & Villains books. Somehow Communications 5 ends up costing 2p in a piece of equipment. Or the designer may not have understood how ridiculously expensive Comm is and that propagated through the books for every Legion member. Sad.
            My old [URL="http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?p=743877#p743877"]Atomic Think Tank[/URL] thread
            My current character thread: [URL="https://roninarmy.com/threads/6194-The-Sound-of-My-Eyebeams-JDRook-s-builds-and-blather?p=233536&viewfull=1#post233536"]The Sound of my Eyebeams[/URL][URL="http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?p=743877#p743877"]
            [/URL]
            I will build characters in HeroLab for you! Send me [URL="https://www.fiverr.com/jdrook/transcribe-a-mutants-and-masterminds-pc-in-herolab?funnel=6e71f15f-207e-49f4-bf35-9ceb23b979a7"]your finished design[/URL] or even [URL="https://www.fiverr.com/jdrook/create-a-mutants-and-masterminds-pc-in-herolab?context=advanced_search&context_type=rating&funnel=2014103117123522519608360"]your original concept[/URL]!

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            • #7
              Re: Feedback Flaw with "Alternate Saves"

              Originally posted by JDRook View Post
              Possibly the Distress Signal in the Flight Rings for all of the LoSH characters in the Heroes & Villains books. Somehow Communications 5 ends up costing 2p in a piece of equipment. Or the designer may not have understood how ridiculously expensive Comm is and that propagated through the books for every Legion member. Sad.
              As it so happens, I had my copy of H&V opened to Supergirl right here in front of me. Turning back a few pages, Sunboy's Legion Ring is built thusly:

              Flight Ring Communication 5 (subspace radio, Anywhere, Limited to Distress Signal –3); Flight 7 (250 MPH) [ 19 PP ]

              A cursory glance at four or five other Legionnaires shows the same build.

              That's 14-points for Flight 7, leaving 5-points for the Communication Effect.

              Communication is 4/rank base; limiting it to a single group would be a –1/rank flaw; limiting it to a single, specific message only transmittable to that group is a -3/rank flaw... So the distress call ends up costing Communication is 1/rank. You need five ranks to get "Unlimited: effectively anywhere" distance on the Communication effect.

              14+6=19; the exact price Sunboy, Starman, Saturn Girl, Brainiac 5, and Dawnstar all paid for their Flight Rings.

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              • #8
                Re: Feedback Flaw with "Alternate Saves"

                My first encounter with this was with Brainiac 5, since I was entering these all into HeroLab alphabetically, and his Flight Ring was listed as:

                Flight Ring: Communication 5 (Subspace Radio, Anywhere, Limited to Distress Signal, –3 points), Flight 7 (250 MPH) • 16 points

                which was hard to parse, but my best guess was that Flight was 14p and Comm 5 was considered 1p/rank and then had -3 points as a Distress Signal limit, which looked like the only way to get 16p total.

                It looks like they corrected the total to 19p for the second book, but I haven't seen a corrected version of the first volume. Did they fix B5 in your book, BG3? I may need to see if I can access my PDFs from the old store.

                It would have been nice if they had been a little more verbose on how that Distress Signal worked, but since they knew they'd have to copy it over a dozen times, I guess I understand why they didn't.

                EDIT: and apparently they never did fix the volume 1 PDF. The one I just downloaded from the server has the same error.
                Last edited by JDRook; 12-02-2014, 08:16 PM.
                My old [URL="http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?p=743877#p743877"]Atomic Think Tank[/URL] thread
                My current character thread: [URL="https://roninarmy.com/threads/6194-The-Sound-of-My-Eyebeams-JDRook-s-builds-and-blather?p=233536&viewfull=1#post233536"]The Sound of my Eyebeams[/URL][URL="http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?p=743877#p743877"]
                [/URL]
                I will build characters in HeroLab for you! Send me [URL="https://www.fiverr.com/jdrook/transcribe-a-mutants-and-masterminds-pc-in-herolab?funnel=6e71f15f-207e-49f4-bf35-9ceb23b979a7"]your finished design[/URL] or even [URL="https://www.fiverr.com/jdrook/create-a-mutants-and-masterminds-pc-in-herolab?context=advanced_search&context_type=rating&funnel=2014103117123522519608360"]your original concept[/URL]!

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                • #9
                  Re: Feedback Flaw with "Alternate Saves"

                  An Affliction that only works on women, is sense dependent, and always has the side effect.
                  Call it a Charm of Girlish Infatuation,Transforms or Controls the person looking at you into loving you, and you suffer the same Affliction.
                  A total of -4 in flaws. Each flaw is legit alone, are they not worth as much altogether?

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                  • #10
                    Re: Feedback Flaw with "Alternate Saves"

                    Originally posted by ronyon View Post
                    An Affliction that only works on women, is sense dependent, and always has the side effect.
                    Call it a Charm of Girlish Infatuation,Transforms or Controls the person looking at you into loving you, and you suffer the same Affliction.
                    A total of -4 in flaws. Each flaw is legit alone, are they not worth as much altogether?
                    What you've described is a plot device more then a power, IMO. As a gm i'd throw the player a hero point and tell him to act out being in love with an npc for an hour. The charm really has no other in-game purpose other then being a plot device.
                    "Reverting to name calling suggests you are defensive and therefore find my opinion valid," Spock, Into Darkness.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Feedback Flaw with "Alternate Saves"

                      ???If this was a a power to be used on a PC by the GM no flaws or other accounting would be needed.

                      That was a power build for a PC to use.

                      A Touch range move object that only works on water, -3

                      A Proportional,Unreliable (5 uses), Create Object Effect that can be Resisted . -3



                      I could go on, but it seems like you object to PC's getting too much in the way of savings,even if the power is legitimately restricted in utility.

                      Ah well, to each their own.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Feedback Flaw with "Alternate Saves"

                        Originally posted by ronyon View Post
                        That was a power build for a PC to use.
                        You build a power that makes female npcs fall in love with you, and also makes YOU fall in love with them against your will. Yeah, sounds like the type of thing a PC would use several times per battle just like his force field and energy blast.

                        A Touch range move object that only works on water, -3
                        Touch is -1, only against water, at least in the power profile, is a -1. Total of -2.

                        I could go on, but it seems like you object to PC's getting too much in the way of savings,even if the power is legitimately restricted in utility.

                        Ah well, to each their own.
                        No. What I'm against is PCs throwing obscure flaws into a build for no other reason then to save points; especially when they're going to get to cherry-pick to only use the power when the flaw won't bother them. It's like Steve's old example of someone buying blast 12, only against women, 12 pts and then giving it an AE of blast 12, only against men for 1 more pt. You just bought a 24 pts power for 13 pts, and it's not limiting you in any manner. If a flaw's not really limiting you then it's not really worth any points.

                        And you're correct: to each their own. You're not going to play in my games and I'm not going to play in yours so use all the -3/-4 flaws you want.
                        "Reverting to name calling suggests you are defensive and therefore find my opinion valid," Spock, Into Darkness.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Feedback Flaw with "Alternate Saves"

                          Originally posted by Monolith View Post
                          You build a power that makes female npcs fall in love with you, and also makes YOU fall in love with them against your will. Yeah, sounds like the type of thing a PC would use several times per battle just like his force field and energy blast.
                          While its usually a mistake to over-buy rarely used powers as anything but Power Stunts, its not up to anyone but the player if they want to do that.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Feedback Flaw with "Alternate Saves"

                            Originally posted by Darkdreamer View Post
                            While its usually a mistake to over-buy rarely used powers as anything but Power Stunts, its not up to anyone but the player if they want to do that.
                            And, of course, the GM as to whether they want to allow it. It's really a matter of personal taste in the end.
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                            • #15
                              Re: Feedback Flaw with "Alternate Saves"

                              Originally posted by FuzzyBoots View Post
                              And, of course, the GM as to whether they want to allow it. It's really a matter of personal taste in the end.
                              Exactly. We don't all play the same game even though we're using the same rules.
                              "Reverting to name calling suggests you are defensive and therefore find my opinion valid," Spock, Into Darkness.

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