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Question on Porting M&M 3e Elements Back into M&M 2e System

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  • Question on Porting M&M 3e Elements Back into M&M 2e System

    Hello. New to these forums after having spent time on the Atomic Think Tank a while back.

    I have a group of players who are (a) very familiar with D&D, (b) not interested in learning any new systems at the moment, and (c) divided on their interest in superhero rpgs in general. While I own most of the books for both 2e and 3e (including all the DC-specific volumes for 3e), I believe I have a much better chance of grabbing their interest with M&M 2e due to its use of familiar d20 abilities, terminology and such.

    But I would like to incorporate several M&M 3e rules changes that I see as the biggest improvements that were made to the 2e version of the rules. Specifically:
    • Changing the definition of the Stun condition in 2e to the 3e "dazed" version to avoid the stun-death-spiral
    • Bringing the 3e Affliction power structure into 2e as a replacement for the 2e versions of powers like Dazzle, Snare, and so on
    • Changing the save failure thresholds to 3e's 1-5, 6-10, 11-15, 16+ levels
    • Granting all characters access to the +2/-2 attack maneuver tradeoffs


    The last item isn't a big deal; IIRC this was an option mentioned in the 2e Mastermind's Manual.

    I'm curious to see if the wiser/more experienced heads on these forums can point me to an existing thread on this topic OR provide any insights as to possible pitfalls to bringing these elements of 3e back into 2e. For example, it looks like bringing Affliction into 2e requires reconfiguring the 2e list of Conditions and their definitions to match the 3e list, which may have too many domino effects on other powers and so forth to be worthwhile.

    For point of reference, I have 2e Ultimate Power and the 3e Power Profiles book.

    Thanks
    D.O.A. Setting

  • #2
    Re: Question on Porting M&M 3e Elements Back into M&M 2e System

    I found that affliction ended up being a lot more confusing to D&D types over the 2e individual powers. Affliction's so generic that it tends to white-wash some powers rather then giving them a real individuality. The 2e powers gave off more of a spell vibe that made more sense to the players.
    "Reverting to name calling suggests you are defensive and therefore find my opinion valid," Spock, Into Darkness.

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    • #3
      Re: Question on Porting M&M 3e Elements Back into M&M 2e System

      Thanks for that insight, Monolith. Thinking about how my group views their 4e characters and associated powers, that makes sense. I confess that when I first picked up DC Adventures, I was confused by the Affliction power. It took me a while to grasp its flexibility, but it still comes across as very dry without more examples. The Power Profiles do help with that.

      One reason I was leaning toward pitching 2e to the players is that the power construction framework of 3e is a bit abstract for what they're used to, although it makes sense to me coming from a lengthy supers background.
      D.O.A. Setting

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      • #4
        Re: Question on Porting M&M 3e Elements Back into M&M 2e System

        I just think if I were a player looking at a super-power what would I want to see?

        Ice Binding: Ranged Cumulative Affliction (ice; Resisted by Dodge, Overcome by Damage; Hindered and Vulnerable, Defenseless and Immobilized), Extra Condition, Limited Degree 3 points per rank

        or

        Ice Binding: Snare 2 points per rank

        As a player I only need to learn what snare does rather then what cumulative, hindered, vulnerable, defenseless, and immobilized do. It just seems much easier.
        "Reverting to name calling suggests you are defensive and therefore find my opinion valid," Spock, Into Darkness.

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        • #5
          Re: Question on Porting M&M 3e Elements Back into M&M 2e System

          While I don't disagree with Monolith in general, I think this is only going to be a matter of degree; people coming from exception based systems like D&D are kind of going to expect an trapped-in-ice power and a grabbed-by-vines power to have different mechanics and be, essentially, separate things anyway; whether they're built with Affliction or Snare is only going to matter so much. If you're building the powers you can hide the Affliction construction under the hood anyway, and if they're building them, if they have trouble with affliction, they're likely to get caught out on things like when Stun or Paralyze is the more appropriate choice anyway.

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          • #6
            Re: Question on Porting M&M 3e Elements Back into M&M 2e System

            Take a look at Elric's list of changes he'd make to 2e (many based on what changed in 3e).

            I would not use Affliction. The existing powers in 2e (Stun, Paralyze, etc) work out to the same cost, and the terms are clearly defined (they're detrimentally vague in 3e).

            I've brought in the integrated STR/Distance/Mass chart, Complications vs Drawbacks, faster recovery times (Complications for lasting injuries), easier Regeneration, easier Defend maneuver (and Deflect effect), etc. Everyone has access to the adjustment Feats at +/-2, they cannot be combined without buying them, and they're capped at a combined value of +/-5, e.g. AOA 3/PA 2 (you can exceed that cap with Extra Effort).
            Penny's Build Party - Playable builds - M&M 2.5 featuring Damage Roll combat

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            • #7
              Re: Question on Porting M&M 3e Elements Back into M&M 2e System

              Originally posted by Darkdreamer View Post
              If you're building the powers you can hide the Affliction construction under the hood anyway, and if they're building them, if they have trouble with affliction, they're likely to get caught out on things like when Stun or Paralyze is the more appropriate choice anyway.
              It is true that for the one-shot I have in mind I'm probably going to be creating the builds for the PCs, either giving players a few options to choose from or getting a general sense of the character type they're interested in (mutant electricity controller, master martial artist, speedster, etc.). So I will try to hide what I can. I have a couple min-maxer types who will probably ask me rules questions at some point.
              D.O.A. Setting

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              • #8
                Re: Question on Porting M&M 3e Elements Back into M&M 2e System

                Originally posted by badpenny View Post
                Take a look at Elric's list of changes he'd make to 2e (many based on what changed in 3e).

                I would not use Affliction. The existing powers in 2e (Stun, Paralyze, etc) work out to the same cost, and the terms are clearly defined (they're detrimentally vague in 3e).

                I've brought in the integrated STR/Distance/Mass chart, Complications vs Drawbacks, faster recovery times (Complications for lasting injuries), easier Regeneration, easier Defend maneuver (and Deflect effect), etc. Everyone has access to the adjustment Feats at +/-2, they cannot be combined without buying them, and they're capped at a combined value of +/-5, e.g. AOA 3/PA 2 (you can exceed that cap with Extra Effort).
                That is a very helpful link, exactly the sort of thing I was looking for--thanks!

                I hadn't considered using the 3e Str/Mass/Distance chart, which is funny given that I ran a long campaign in high school and college using the MEGS DC Heroes Game and the 3e charts are based on the same mechanics. Also I hadn't looked closely at the differences in Deflect; the 3e version does seem simpler and cleaner.

                I suppose the thing that appealed to me about Affliction in 3e was that it seems easier to build powers that inflict different combinations of conditions, or to create powers that generate effects in stages--not all the 2e equivalent powers have the same stages. But I've not played 3e, so I can't say how well its conditions as defined work in practice.

                Anyway, good stuff, very useful.
                D.O.A. Setting

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