Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Impervious Defense: Toughness and power level limits

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Impervious Defense: Toughness and power level limits

    I've just recently started running a DCA campaign, and I think I made a horrible mistake. The power level for the game is 10. I've allowed a PC to take ranks in Impervious Defense: Toughness beyond his actual Toughness. It isn't clear exactly in the verbatim of the extra in the book. His defenses are balanced this way...Dodge 5, Parry 5, Toughness 15.

    The reason this confusing to me is because there is no cap on Power Ranks in general, and he gets all his Toughness from Stamina (which is 15), and is not exactly a power. So, his sheet looks like this in Hero Lab...

    Toughness 15 (Impervious +18)

    Did I mess up by allowing that? If so, can you please provide a page reference for clarification?

  • #2
    Re: Impervious Defense: Toughness and power level limits

    Is it unbalancing the game?

    3E 18 Impervious is the same level of effect as 9 Impervious from 2E, just at double the cost.

    From a PL 10+ character (a teammate or a villian) any attack from a PL capped power that is not accuracy shifted by more than a point or two would still get past it. Even an accuracy shifted character using power attack, a crit, or having an attack with piercing will get past it.

    Personally I wouldn't say no to it, but that is out of context of what the rest of the group is playing or your campaign setting.
    Classic car restoring, gun owning, martial arts practicing, military, gamer geek, kinky lesbian IT chick (has your brain exploded yet?)
    [URL="http://roninarmy.com/threads/1835-Digital-s-Daemons"]My character library[/URL]

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Impervious Defense: Toughness and power level limits

      Impervious is an extra not an effect. As such it can only modify an existing ability/effect. So it can only modify the amount of toughness a character has. If the character only has 15 toughness then impervious can only be a 15 value.
      Last edited by Monolith; 11-20-2014, 12:09 PM.
      "Reverting to name calling suggests you are defensive and therefore find my opinion valid," Spock, Into Darkness.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Impervious Defense: Toughness and power level limits

        Yeah, by the book, Impervious cannot exceed Total Toughness. HeroLab can allow additional Imp ranks in case you have Toughness from different sources, but it doesn't actually indicate an error if you go over.

        In the DCA Handbook, the official Superman is built with Impervious 18 that matches his Toughness. He's also PL15. There are a handful of other official builds similar to Supes (Bizarro, Zod, etc) who also have Imp 18 and range from PL14-16.

        So officially, I'd say your player wants to be as tough as PL15 Superman in a PL10 setting, and while it is your game and completely up to you, I wouldn't recommend it. Imp 15 will still allow him to completely ignore any attack of Damage rank 8 or below, which still includes all but the heaviest military-grade weapons and any non-super strength melee attacks. With those 3 extra points he could buy Ultimate Toughness and Immunity to Critical Hits and still be the toughest thing around, at least at his PL.
        Last edited by JDRook; 11-20-2014, 10:32 AM.
        My old [URL="http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?p=743877#p743877"]Atomic Think Tank[/URL] thread
        My current character thread: [URL="https://roninarmy.com/threads/6194-The-Sound-of-My-Eyebeams-JDRook-s-builds-and-blather?p=233536&viewfull=1#post233536"]The Sound of my Eyebeams[/URL][URL="http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?p=743877#p743877"]
        [/URL]
        I will build characters in HeroLab for you! Send me [URL="https://www.fiverr.com/jdrook/transcribe-a-mutants-and-masterminds-pc-in-herolab?funnel=6e71f15f-207e-49f4-bf35-9ceb23b979a7"]your finished design[/URL] or even [URL="https://www.fiverr.com/jdrook/create-a-mutants-and-masterminds-pc-in-herolab?context=advanced_search&context_type=rating&funnel=2014103117123522519608360"]your original concept[/URL]!

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Impervious Defense: Toughness and power level limits

          Impervious is a Flat Extra, which are not actually limited by PL Caps unless explicitly stated... So, technically this is legal. But it's a odd grey area that most GMs frown on.

          As you say, you're a new Game Master with new players, I would highly recommend you limit Impervious Ranks to his total Toughness modifier. And I'd even encourage him to go lower, unless invulnerability is the whole of his concept.

          My Ready to Play Superman is Defense 4 / Toughness 16 (Impervious 9). He's still plenty super.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Impervious Defense: Toughness and power level limits

            Honestly, an Imprevious 18 character in a PL 10 game is unlikely to be that big a deal. We saw people stopping attacks bigger than 9 points all the time in the 2e days, but between Power Attack, Effect shifted people, Penetrating and so on, it, if anything, never meant enough. To this day, I still look at the change in Impervious and its the single change I least understand; it seems to be addressing a problem that was vanishingly rare (extremely heavily Toughness shifted characters with maximum Impervious--even most of those could be handled with proper power stunting, and letting people go too crazy with Toughess shifting was a bad idea for reasons that had little to do with Impervious).

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Impervious Defense: Toughness and power level limits

              Originally posted by Batgirl III View Post
              Impervious is a Flat Extra, which are not actually limited by PL Caps unless explicitly stated... So, technically this is legal. But it's a odd grey area that most GMs frown on.
              Impervious isn't listed as a flat modifier in the book. It clearly states "+1 cost per rank" in the description. Flat modifiers list themselves as "flat x points" in their description to show they are purchased at a fixed cost per rank purchased.
              "Reverting to name calling suggests you are defensive and therefore find my opinion valid," Spock, Into Darkness.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Impervious Defense: Toughness and power level limits

                Thanks, guys for the help! Probably something I should've caught sooner!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Impervious Defense: Toughness and power level limits

                  3E is my first taste of M&M so I don't know how it used to be in 2E.

                  I can see the potential issue of impervious toughness in a toughness shifted character if it were 1 for 1, but at half effect it makes for better theatrics than game mechanics it appears.

                  Has anyone run or did it run in previous versions at 1 for 1 but capped at PL? Is this equally pointless because of the cap, or bleeding into broken?

                  I can definitely see where a impervious toughness of 18 in a PL 10 game could make it real hard to hurt someone if it wasn't 1/2 power, and at half is almost at the PL cap I was just discussing.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Impervious Defense: Toughness and power level limits

                    I know I'm a broken record here, but even at 1:1 it was never an issue. Let me go into why.

                    First off, my assumption is that most of what its supposed to do is make a lot of lower level mooks and minions ineffective; otherwise its simply a pointless cost.

                    So let's look at a fairly extreme case: a PL 10 character who's shifted 5 points to Toughness. That's about the most you want to permit anyway, as it starts to create, well, game artifacts any more extreme than that in many cases; the character is going to shrug off most damage anyway, while still be incredibly vulnerable to certain types of Affliction oriented opponents. These don't so much balance as make the character even more problematic in play.

                    So, he's facing other opponents who are supposed to be serious, most in presumably the 8-12 PL range. As such, he's going to be immune to regular damage from those who are right up the middle in that range, which is unbalanced, right?

                    Well, no. Because there's the following:

                    1. Damage shifted opponents at the same level as he is. Won't happen with the low end of that, but as the PL increases, becomes more and more possible.
                    2. Opponents within 5 of his Toughness in damage output who have Power Attack. This is actually really common (check exemplar villain builds sometime) and its pretty much harmless to use Power Attack on him; since he's traded off his Defense to get it.
                    3. Opponents with even half his Toughness in Damage and Penetrating. Not as common, but not exactly a rare issue for energy projector or things like archer builds.
                    4. Opponents who are partly or wholly built around Afflictions, Weaken or Damage with the Alternate Save extra. If anything, he's made himself more vulnerable to these, as he's easier to hit while not being any more resistant to them. Some aren't individually that common, but as a set they aren't rare either.

                    My experience was that between all those, having someone, usually multiple someone's in the opposition who could do something to an Impervious character was so common that unless you spent a lot of time fighting low level mooks, even the old full-powered version seemed too expensive for how rarely it mattered. Its immensely hard to see how, in most games, that wouldn't be the case. As such, I'm not sure the new version even comes close to paying for itself, and that's even accounting for the fact 3e Penetrating is weaker.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Impervious Defense: Toughness and power level limits

                      Originally posted by kariggi View Post
                      I can see the potential issue of impervious toughness in a toughness shifted character if it were 1 for 1, but at half effect it makes for better theatrics than game mechanics it appears.
                      Not true. Impervious 10 protects against rank 5 Damage and less. For 5 points, you could make yourself entirely Immune to bullets. Impervious 18 costs 36 points and now that we're talking about attacks at or near PL which will blow down your Impervious with either an attack above, e.g. Damage 10, or even if the attack is traded-off, you can still blow past Impervious with a Power Attack.

                      Has anyone run or did it run in previous versions at 1 for 1 but capped at PL? Is this equally pointless because of the cap, or bleeding into broken?
                      That was a common house rule. Capping 2e style Impervious at PL made it easy to blow past it with attacks at or near PL. Again, you can ignore minion level attacks, but if your GM doesn't throw a lot of low ranked effects, then you're wasting those points. It all comes down to knowing the game you're going to join (asking questions of the GM), or correspondingly, if you're the GM, telling your players that the points they've spent on Impervious will largely go unused.

                      I can definitely see where a impervious toughness of 18 in a PL 10 game could make it real hard to hurt someone if it wasn't 1/2 power, and at half is almost at the PL cap I was just discussing.
                      I think running Impervious like 2e at least gives you more bang for your buck, but I actually like the options presented in the Armor Powers Profile better, e.g.

                      For the Impervious Extra, make resistance checks normally but, if the effect rank is less than your Impervious rank, reduce any degree of failure by one; zero degrees of failure counts as one degree of success.
                      So Impervious 12 vs. Damage 10 means you roll your Toughness check and two degrees of failure (Dazed/-1 Resistance) becomes one degree (-1 Resistance). If you rolled one degree, it becomes zero degrees (no damage).
                      Penny's Build Party - Playable builds - M&M 2.5 featuring Damage Roll combat

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X