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  • Power Lifting and Throwing

    Okay, so I've got this player character in a TT game I run who's got Strength 10 and a couple of "Strength Stunts" a-la the Strength Powers Profile. One of these is Strength Stunts she purchases is Power Lifting 8 - meaning that if she wants, she can now lift at rank 18 Lifting, but can't use her Shockwave stunt or her Thunderclap stunt or other stunts while doing so.

    Now, the player asked me after the last game about what would happen if she started throwing very-big stuff while using Power-Lifting and what would happen if they fell on someone (a reasonable question when paragon-types fight one another happens almost bi-monthly in a populated area).

    The hypothetical was throwing a 747 (benchmark rank 14 mass object) at the enemy/Bad-guy. Now, the math would tell us the range is rank 4: 500 ft. But then we were curious: what in the world would the Damage rank be? Her (normal) Strength rank? Her Power Lifting rank? Or the Mass rank (14 in this example)?

  • #2
    Re: Power Lifting and Throwing

    Short Answer: I would use the better of base STR or Mass, restricted by PL unless otherwise arranged.

    Long Answer: Stick to PL of the setting. Throwing a large object like an aircraft could definitely be considered an Area Effect, so in a standard PL10 setting it would be Damage 10 but with a big area.

    If you were throwing it with a single target in mind, like a named Enemy, then I would base Damage on Mass (14) but drop Attack bonus so that it fits setting (+6 for PL10).

    If you use my houserule where you can break PL with the use of a Hero Point in situations like these, I'd allow the Mass Damage (14) with normal Attack bonus. This is especially appropriate for big final attacks vs the main villain. Of course, narratively speaking, there are often a few ways actions like that turn out.

    1) Villain is hit. Huge Explosion. Search of the wreckage reveals no body. (Villain escaped = Complication = Hero Point)
    2) Villain is hit. Huge Explosion. Everyone breathes a sigh of relief when suddenly Villain steps out of the wall of fire practically unscathed. (Villain unaffected = Complication = Hero Point)
    3) Some variation of those themes or somewhere in between (Villain catches aircraft and throws it back/crumples it like a beer can/eats it; explosion sends Villain flying out of range; Villain appears out of nowhere, possibly smoldering, and sneak attacks the group; etc)
    4) Roll Attack Check, roll resistance check, continue combat until one side drops.

    What happens specifically would depend mostly on context: Is the villain more about being invulnerable, or being sneaky? Do the heroes need to get information from him to advance the plot? Is it a good time to have an extended combat or do you think the group is ready to wrap it up for the night?
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    • #3
      Re: Power Lifting and Throwing

      Originally posted by kenmadragon View Post
      Okay, so I've got this player character in a TT game I run who's got Strength 10 and a couple of "Strength Stunts" a-la the Strength Powers Profile. One of these is Strength Stunts she purchases is Power Lifting 8 - meaning that if she wants, she can now lift at rank 18 Lifting, but can't use her Shockwave stunt or her Thunderclap stunt or other stunts while doing so.

      Now, the player asked me after the last game about what would happen if she started throwing very-big stuff while using Power-Lifting and what would happen if they fell on someone (a reasonable question when paragon-types fight one another happens almost bi-monthly in a populated area).

      The hypothetical was throwing a 747 (benchmark rank 14 mass object) at the enemy/Bad-guy. Now, the math would tell us the range is rank 4: 500 ft. But then we were curious: what in the world would the Damage rank be? Her (normal) Strength rank? Her Power Lifting rank? Or the Mass rank (14 in this example)?
      I actually think that the short answer is that Damage rank should be equal to her normal Strength rank.

      Standard thrown weapons, such as a spear, are Strength-Based effects. Throwing a building or a 747 is just an improvised, larger object, but the same logic applies.

      Power Lifting is technically Enhanced Strength (Flaw: Limited to Lifting). Strength inherently includes two key components: lifting (including throwing distance) and damage. The damage component applies to damage with melee or ranged Strength-based attacks, which includes thrown weapons. Someone with Power Lifting can lift and throw items farther, but their throwing packs no more of a punch than normal.

      However, someone with Power Lifting can cause more damage with larger objects by dropping them on someone. That's because gravity is doing the dirty work, not the character. Power Lifting would allow you to more easily lift large objects, and then gravity is responsible for the damage. In that case, the Damage rank is equal to the Mass rank of the dropped item OR the distance fell, whichever is greater (Power Profiles: Teleport Powers, p. 3). In that case, I usually limit Damage of dropped objects to rank 16, just to avoid headaches when players try to ask how much Damage they can cause by dropping the Empire State Building on someone.

      As mentioned by JDRook, if the object is large enough (at GM's discretion), you can do it as an Area attack. See PP: Strength Powers for details. In that case, Damage would still be equal to your Strength rank, but would be limited to max of PL.
      Elliot McGuire/Levitron - Super Framily Apprenticeship Plan (IC)
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      • #4
        Re: Power Lifting and Throwing

        because damage is limited by the to hit i would say

        throwing skill 10 and str. 10 and power lifting 8?

        if the char is trying to throw with str. 18 then i would reduce the throwing skill to 2 or lifting power dont mean to throw this, only to lift, carry and let it fall down

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Power Lifting and Throwing

          Technically, since the strength stunts are alternate effects of the damage component of strength, it could be argued that using a Power lifting alternate effect prevents the user from making any strength-based attack at all. They no longer have access to STR 10 for damage because they are using the alternate effect instead.

          Because of this, I would not let the character make melee attacks with the lifted object, citing that it was just too awkward to swing in combat.

          I would allow throwing and dropping to cause damage, but in the case of an object the size of a passenger jet, I cannot see any way to have this be a single target attack. I cannot imagine how a hero could drop a jumbo jet on the bad guy and somehow miss the hostage/ally/busload-of-nuns right next to them. Even if there were no other targets to hit, I would rule that it would have to be an Area attack, and thus capped at PL.

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          • #6
            Re: Power Lifting and Throwing

            There are two components to STR: Lifting and Damage. The AEs are structured by basing them off the ranks of Damage available: if you had STR 12, then you have a 12 point base for your AEs.

            You can buy ranks of Enhanced STR (Limited to Lifting) and throw with those ranks, but the Damage you do is based on your ranks of STR Damage. Lifting would determine how much and how far you could throw something.

            Typically if what you throw is large enough you are granted an Area attack by the GM, and if you make your Dodge check vs the effect, there's no damage as opposed to half ranks (like dodging the area attack of a Create effect).
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            • #7
              Re: Power Lifting and Throwing

              Suppose a character has rank 14 power lifting, and one rank of bog standard strength.
              A tactile telekinesis type. I can see him gently swatting a huge Area with a giant object. No adjudication problem there.
              What if he tosses the object directly above his intended target(s)? Should that be treated as falling object attack ,with all the implied rulings?

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              • #8
                Re: Power Lifting and Throwing

                whats the rule for falling objects?

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                • #9
                  Re: Power Lifting and Throwing

                  Originally posted by Supi View Post
                  whats the rule for falling objects?
                  Oddly enough, it's found in the Powers Chapter, DCA, page 92, tucked in with the Create Power.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Power Lifting and Throwing

                    ok its page 154 hero handbook and lift power dont mean throw power so you would be hit by your own aoe dropping object?
                    Last edited by Supi; 11-27-2014, 02:51 AM.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Power Lifting and Throwing

                      Originally posted by Supi View Post
                      ok its page 154 hero handbook and lift power dont mean throw power so you would be hit by your own aoe dropping object?
                      If you drop your aoe object with you in the area then yeah, you can be hit by your own aoe object. Most people would drop it far enough away from them that they are not in the area.
                      "Reverting to name calling suggests you are defensive and therefore find my opinion valid," Spock, Into Darkness.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Power Lifting and Throwing

                        I'm going to assume you aren't superhumanly strong, but you can try this experiment yourself!

                        Go into the bedroom. Lift your pillow above your head, say some bit of cool banter like your favorite superhero would ("Time for bed, Dr. Meanie!") and then drop the pillow straight down instead of throwing it.

                        Did it bonk you in the head?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Power Lifting and Throwing

                          Originally posted by kenmadragon View Post
                          Okay, so I've got this player character in a TT game I run who's got Strength 10 and a couple of "Strength Stunts" a-la the Strength Powers Profile. One of these is Strength Stunts she purchases is Power Lifting 8 - meaning that if she wants, she can now lift at rank 18 Lifting, but can't use her Shockwave stunt or her Thunderclap stunt or other stunts while doing so.

                          Now, the player asked me after the last game about what would happen if she started throwing very-big stuff while using Power-Lifting and what would happen if they fell on someone (a reasonable question when paragon-types fight one another happens almost bi-monthly in a populated area).

                          The hypothetical was throwing a 747 (benchmark rank 14 mass object) at the enemy/Bad-guy. Now, the math would tell us the range is rank 4: 500 ft. But then we were curious: what in the world would the Damage rank be? Her (normal) Strength rank? Her Power Lifting rank? Or the Mass rank (14 in this example)?
                          Are they using Power Lifting as an Alternate Effect of Strength? Or did they purchase separately, for 8 points, Power Lifting 8?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Power Lifting and Throwing

                            Here's how I have always explained the impact of Permanent to new players: Cyclops and Superman.

                            Even my friends that aren't devoutees of comics know these two characters. They know that Superman has his heat vision and Cyclops has his optic blasts. Clark can turn his on and off at will, as a bog standard Damage # (Extra: Ranged) power, Cyclops on the other hand has no control over his power, making it Damage # (Extra: Ranged; Flaw: Permanent).

                            Now, there are other specific nuances to building those powers for the specific characters as (N)PCs. But for illustrating the difference between Permanant and not, it's the best I've come up with.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Power Lifting and Throwing

                              But Cyclops has his glasses which effectively render the permanent bit to just a complication. Most of the time he has complete control over the use of his eye beams.
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