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Daze Advantage--what's the use for it?

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  • Daze Advantage--what's the use for it?

    I'm just getting back into the system, and never used 3e much before I got out of supers for a couple years. So I'm refamiliarizing myself with the rules and get to the Daze advantage.

    Now, I understand why they removed the Advantage's predecessor; Distract was a bit overpowered, and could be incredibly so under some circumstances. But I'm finding myself hard-pressed to come up with a situation where its worth trading your standard action for someone else's move action, which is essentially what the Daze advantage does.

    Am I missing some sort of tactic here? Even against melee opponents that doesn't seem a good trade, and against those with ranged attacks, I'm having trouble coming up with any situation where its a winner.

  • #2
    Re: Daze Advantage--what's the use for it?

    It's basically just the ability to do something extra with a skill. Not every character has powers, so the ability to make someone hesitate is a decent way of representing various types of presence attacks from intimidation or surprises from deception.

    As far as advantages, if you can't move and attack and your foe can you're at the short end. If you're melee and someone can punch you and move away that's an advantage. If you're ranged and someone can hit you and move out of your maximum range, or even put you in -5 range to hit them, that's an advantage. With the movement distances in this game it's very easy to move outside of someone's maximum range in a move action; meaning they have limited options..
    "Reverting to name calling suggests you are defensive and therefore find my opinion valid," Spock, Into Darkness.

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    • #3
      Re: Daze Advantage--what's the use for it?

      Yes, but the point, unless you're setting someone else up, none of that matters; you've used up your own standard action to do that, after all. And even when it does help someone else, the effect is often minimal, because ranged attacks usually don't care. At the best, all I can see it do is let someone else retreat; it won't help you, because you've sacrificed everything but your move action anyway, so the target can either shoot at you anyway (and if you're far enough away just the move will prevent that, the double move you could have taken without bothering with the Daze would have too) or Charge you and still hit (and the same thing applies).

      I mean, seriously, describe a situation where this is a better choice than doing something else with the standard action; not in generality, but give an example. I can't find a one where it benefits you personally, and it doesn't even do much of a job of setting up a benefit for someone else.

      Edit: The range issue only matters for a small range of relative powers, for example; otherwise either the target will still be in the range, or could have been out of the range even if the target of the Daze was able to move (at a certain point even one step of speed differential is bigger than most range increments); if he is in that, all the Daze user has done is buy them time at best, and time for--what, exactly? And of course the Daze isn't likely usable against a lot of targets at really long ranges because you likely can't interact enough to use it unless the target has super-senses of the right kind.

      It seems like a very corner-case Advantage at best.
      Last edited by Darkdreamer; 10-31-2014, 11:42 PM.

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      • #4
        Re: Daze Advantage--what's the use for it?

        I'd say first, most people don't play alone so teaming, and team tactics, does matter. I can also go into the idea that sometimes characters take more then 1 standard action in a round, so dazing, punching, and moving aren't that uncommon. Finally, I'd say that in a game where a rank 12 blast has a maximum range of 1200' and a -5 to hit range of 601' to 1200' that having rank 5+ movement of some type to take advantage of those penalties does matter. To an injured character it can be the difference of staying up or going unconscious. Still, feel free to use it or not. Every advantage in the game isn't right for every game.
        "Reverting to name calling suggests you are defensive and therefore find my opinion valid," Spock, Into Darkness.

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        • #5
          Re: Daze Advantage--what's the use for it?

          I do agree team tactics are a thing, but even when supporting someone else it seems marginal; and if you bring surge into it, the Dazed character can still do that too, negating most of the benefit, if it comes to that.

          Its not your responsibility to sell me on it, of course, but I'm still having trouble picturing a situation where trading one of your standard actions for one of someone else's move actions is all that useful; even when it does something good, its not clear to me why it'd be the most useful thing to do with a standard action.

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          • #6
            Re: Daze Advantage--what's the use for it?

            It seems like a bad trade, but a lot in this game is situational, and since the end-all be-all in this game isn't beating every opponent into the ground, it likely has its place.
            I'll point out that it is the second degree of damage failure, so there are instances where it could do more than a standard action used to punch/kick/blast someone. Also reducing the overall number of actions an opponent can take can be key to their capture or defeat. If they intended to bust out of a cell and flee, they wouldn't be able to flee this turn, or snatch the diamond from the curator and then teleport off, and since move actions can be used for effects other than moving such as activated abilities or even the use of certain powers, it limits their options, especially in a team game limiting the villains options can be key, just making her choose between killing the hostage or escaping can be the difference in a heroic outcome, or a scandalous publicized failure.

            I truly believe Super-Hero roleplaying requires more imaginative play and greater buy in than most other genres, and that it pushes normal practicality and mechanically based decisions to the side in favor of a better cooperative narrative when its at its best.

            but eh I don't have a character with the Daze advantage built either so meh I get your point, but if I ever built a character for whom the decision to include it seemed right I wouldn't hesitate to pay a point for it and then take it around the block a few times.

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            • #7
              Re: Daze Advantage--what's the use for it?

              Originally posted by kariggi View Post
              I'll point out that it is the second degree of damage failure, so there are instances where it could do more than a standard action used to punch/kick/blast someone.
              To be honest, I'm underwhelmed by Daze as a combat effect generally, too; 2e Stun was too strong, but 3e Daze may well be too weak. The major benefit of most combat strikes to me is the accumulated resistance penalty leading to Staggered and ultimately incapacitated was the real gig.

              Also reducing the overall number of actions an opponent can take can be key to their capture or defeat. If they intended to bust out of a cell and flee, they wouldn't be able to flee this turn, or snatch the diamond from the curator and then teleport off, and since move actions can be used for effects other than moving such as activated abilities or even the use of certain powers, it limits their options, especially in a team game limiting the villains options can be key, just making her choose between killing the hostage or escaping can be the difference in a heroic outcome, or a scandalous publicized failure.
              Which is what I was classing in corner cases. I won't deny there are cases when robbing someone of a move action can be useful; what I'm questioning is how often its more useful than other things you could be doing to them with a Standard action.
              Last edited by Darkdreamer; 11-03-2014, 07:52 AM.

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              • #8
                Re: Daze Advantage--what's the use for it?

                Steve made a lot of mistakes when he moved to 3e. There were several things that were too good in 2e, but he totally nerfed them in 3e.

                The easy solution to move away from 2e's Stunlock, was to switch to Dazed (no actions, but defends normally). 3e's Dazed is barely worth noticing (like Fatigue, and I'd argue that really cheapens the nature of Extra Effort when you can acquire a condition that literally means no impact for most players--perhaps save for grounders with no extra movement or appreciable Athletics skill).

                2e's Distract was too good, but my house rule was to make the Feat ranked: one use per combat per rank limited to half PL.

                The easy solution if you're the GM is to change the nature of the condition. If you're a player, you can ask the GM about changing it, and be prepared to put your point into something else if s/he is going to run Daze per RAW.
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                • #9
                  Re: Daze Advantage--what's the use for it?

                  Badpenny, do you have any suggestions for 3E fatigued. My players have just fully discovered Extra Effort, especially the flyers.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Daze Advantage--what's the use for it?

                    Originally posted by kariggi View Post
                    Badpenny, do you have any suggestions for 3E fatigued. My players have just fully discovered Extra Effort, especially the flyers.
                    While I'm happy with super-fast recovery times, and glossed-over lifting strengths, Fatigue is annoying that it's such a trifle. I want my players to have to take it on the chin when they decide to acquire Fatigue.

                    For Fatigued, you could go with:
                    • -1 STR (-1 Damage and -1 rank of lifting)
                    • -1 AGL/DEX (-1 Dodge, -1 Initiative, -1 to both Acrobatics and Stealth; -1 Ranged Attack, -1 to both Slight of Hand and Vehicles)
                    • -1 FGT (-1 Parry, and -1 Close Attack)


                    Exhausted would be at least -2 STR, -2 AGL/DEX, -2 FGT; Hindered, and maybe even Dazed.
                    Penny's Build Party - Playable builds - M&M 2.5 featuring Damage Roll combat

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                    • #11
                      Re: Daze Advantage--what's the use for it?

                      I'll disagree with you on Fatigued. The first use of extra-effort gives you Fatigued, which slows you down. The second use gives you Exhausted, which also makes you Impaired, with the -2 penalties to attack/etc. To me, that encourages at least one use of Extra Effort during combat for something like a power stunt or making that one hit just slightly more damaging by raising the rank of the power. I definitely agree on the changes for Dazed/Stunned. It made things considerably less useful.
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                      • #12
                        Re: Daze Advantage--what's the use for it?

                        Fatigued makes you Hindered--slowing you down by -1 Speed. That only affects characters who don't have any more than base Speed 0 and who can't increase it with an appreciable Athletics check. Going from a 30 foot move to a 15 foot move is considerable--it's a genuine tactical distance.

                        Someone with Flight 8 drops to Flight 7. That's a difference of 1 mile in a move action being reduced to half a mile. That has absolutely zero effect on combat.

                        When you compare what you can do with an HP, spending an HP to remove Fatigue is not worthwhile. So that first Extra Effort is nearly entirely free (and cheapens the whole notion for me).

                        In 3e, I'm tempted to remove stunting from Extra Effort and make it a function of a Hero Point instead.
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                        • #13
                          Re: Daze Advantage--what's the use for it?

                          I think it's just a difference of opinion as to whether allowing that one "free" stunt in the encounter is a good thing. Personally, I'm weighing toward it being a way to encourage creativity for both the heroes and villains.
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                          • #14
                            Re: Daze Advantage--what's the use for it?

                            I come at this from another POV--not whether it should be free or not, but if you're going to make it free, make it free. If you're going to impose a condition, make it one that actually has a meaningful effect.

                            All Hindered does is further hamstring a certain class of characters, ones who typically already suffer under attack-shifting being meaningless and defense-shifting being less advantageous than Toughness-shifting, e.g. Weapon Masters, Martial Artists who typically don't have high movement.

                            Free isn't really free--only to those with high movement.

                            Edit: And don't forget the Tiring Flaw. Flaws should reduce effectiveness roughly by half, and yet that first rank of Fatigue imposes no real penalty.

                            I hate half-assedry.
                            Last edited by badpenny; 11-03-2014, 08:36 AM.
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                            • #15
                              Re: Daze Advantage--what's the use for it?

                              You're right on Tiring. I hadn't considered that. Much like the hamstringing of Daze, and a few other areas, it's a side effect of changing a few things without checking to see what else it affects.
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