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Does anyone else have a problem with the way Growth / Shrinking work ?

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  • Does anyone else have a problem with the way Growth / Shrinking work ?

    I have often scratched my head at the benefits and hinderances of both Shrinking and Both. And have wondered, if purchasing a size rank could be just paying a flat cost for a specific benefits. Or perhaps dividing the rank for a size shift by say 2, so its 2 ranks to go up or down a size..

  • #2
    Re: Does anyone else have a problem with the way Growth / Shrinking work ?

    I know a lot of GM's have their own specific house rules and set ups regarding Growth and shrinking. I haven't investigated the power set much myself but I know in the game I attempted to run it became a slight issue when one of the players wanted to dead lift another one into a potential combat zone. So I would say if your going to build a character using these powers just use the book variant to make the static character and when you plan to put them fourth in a game you make sure the GM doesn't have house rules.
    -Love is like a Rhino, short-sighted and hasty; if it cannot find a way, it will make a way.

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    • #3
      Re: Does anyone else have a problem with the way Growth / Shrinking work ?

      Taliesin wrote some new versions of Growth/Shrinking/Density

      There's also some new stuff in the Size and Mass Powers profile.
      Penny's Build Party - Playable builds - M&M 2.5 featuring Damage Roll combat

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      • #4
        Re: Does anyone else have a problem with the way Growth / Shrinking work ?

        With 3E fixing the exploitable way in which these powers used to bypass PL Caps, I've never had a problem with them.

        The way the power is written up in the core rulebook is clunky and makes the power a little tough to wrap your head around... But I've never run into issues. It would have been nice to have some bullet-pointed examples:
        Rank 8 gets you X height, X strength and stamina, X mass...
        Rank 12 gets you X height, X strength and stamina, X mass...
        Etcetera

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        • #5
          Re: Does anyone else have a problem with the way Growth / Shrinking work ?

          My only problem with Growth in 2e and 3e is the sliding scale necessary for gaining effect on Damage and physical toughness (strength and toughness increase) isn't balanced with the requisite loss of accuracy and defense, so building a balanced size-changing character requires alot of finagling to pull off.

          I'm not certain why a more simple way of building the power wasn't used, but I understand the frustration with it.

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          • #6
            Re: Does anyone else have a problem with the way Growth / Shrinking work ?

            My Issue is this.. a size shift say from 6 feet to 12 feet, adjusts the character up 4 pts in his strength and stamina. Taking the veritable strong man build, who has a Strength of 4. He now has a strength of 8. Which is 6 tons. Which I might be able to see to a point, but we are talking about a character. Realistically I might see this going up by 2 ranks (instead of 4), if we follow the double progression of mass.

            As a side querry: This makes me wonder about the scale of vehicles over medium size. Which the old Starwars d6 used to do. I always loved that aspect.

            Then we take for example: Dwarves, who usually stands 4 feet tall. How do you comes to terms with that ? Do they even deserve spending points in even a rank of shrinking. Who I don't see getting even a point towards that stealth bonus. I have thought that maybe size needs to be really broken down by Rank, instead of the catch all..
            Last edited by MissRapture38; 09-20-2014, 09:52 AM.

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            • #7
              Re: Does anyone else have a problem with the way Growth / Shrinking work ?

              Originally posted by MissRapture38 View Post
              Then we take for example: Dwarves, who usually stands 4 feet tall. How do you comes to terms with that ? Do they even deserve spending points in even a rank of shrinking. Who I don't see getting even a point towards that stealth bonus. I have thought that maybe size needs to be really broken down by Rank, instead of the catch all..
              There's a pretty decent discussion of why Dwarves are considered of the Medium size post 2E D&D here. Fundamentally, there's a divide between aesthetic size ("My dwarf is 4'2" and his dwarf is 5'3"!") and functional size ("We both hit the same when it comes to battling opponents of various size categories"). I think that, in some ways, 3E M&M missed a chance here to hammer down that some powers are a grouping of traits that increase or decrease all at once. And you can build your Growth and Shrinking separately (I think Jabroniville does it that way) so that changes in strength and attack bonuses change so that they're effective both ways. You can also mess with the kind of ad hoc "Size feature" where the height and weight change with growth and shrinking, although that's sort of tied to the ersatz Elongation bonuses to allow big people to hit from further away.
              [url=http://roninarmy.com/threads/996]My Builds[/url]

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              • #8
                Re: Does anyone else have a problem with the way Growth / Shrinking work ?

                The thing with dwarves is that they always have a very high density for their size due to their muscle and bone structure. They are really atypical for a small creature.

                Originally posted by Horsenhero View Post
                My only problem with Growth in 2e and 3e is the sliding scale necessary for gaining effect on Damage and physical toughness (strength and toughness increase) isn't balanced with the requisite loss of accuracy and defense, so building a balanced size-changing character requires alot of finagling to pull off.

                I'm not certain why a more simple way of building the power wasn't used, but I understand the frustration with it.
                This is a bit puzzling to me as well, but nothing you can't build around. If you put Growth in an array as your "Giant Form", you can then build your "Human Form" to counter any hiccups in your Power Levels that might arise from going from human-sized to max-sized.

                This does however not fix problems that might arise from only using partial ranks of your Growth attribute, but I you can make the Array dynamic for a more gradual exchange between the forms - which is the sane way to go, especially if you're often using different sizes.

                (Mind you I haven't checked whether this would still allow for hiccups, but at least it's something)

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                • #9
                  Re: Does anyone else have a problem with the way Growth / Shrinking work ?

                  Originally posted by MissRapture38 View Post
                  My Issue is this.. a size shift say from 6 feet to 12 feet, adjusts the character up 4 pts in his strength and stamina. Taking the veritable strong man build, who has a Strength of 4. He now has a strength of 8. Which is 6 tons. Which I might be able to see to a point, but we are talking about a character. Realistically I might see this going up by 2 ranks (instead of 4), if we follow the double progression of mass.
                  I wouldn't get too bogged down in the details of something like size changing super powers. Trying to approach it from a "realistic" perspective is only going to raise more questions than it answers, so it's one of those circumstances where all the extraneous details needs to be hand-waved away by accepting it's comic book science or magic, and not worry about it.

                  Because you're right, having strength progress at the rate that it does with Growth doesn't make much sense when you consider the biophysical limitations of the human body. However, it's pretty great at emulating the sorts of things we see Growth characters pull off in the comics. If you start worrying about the realism of the power, there's a whole host of questions that need answered. Instead, just have some giant sized punch-ups.

                  As for building a character with shrinking or growth, if that's their primary gimmick, the best approach is to probably work backwards. Build the character as you want them to play at their max or minimum size, and then figure out their normal size attributes from there.
                  Punching For Justice

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                  • #10
                    Re: Does anyone else have a problem with the way Growth / Shrinking work ?

                    Actually I am more concerned in creating character who have growth which are permanent, to simulate beings of different sizes.
                    I might take a look at Jab's thread then, see what you are talking about.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Does anyone else have a problem with the way Growth / Shrinking work ?

                      Originally posted by MissRapture38 View Post
                      Actually I am more concerned in creating character who have growth which are permanent, to simulate beings of different sizes.
                      I might take a look at Jab's thread then, see what you are talking about.
                      Check out Prodigy Duck's excellent fantasy monster builds, too! Beasties of every size from Ant to... Something big with a Z.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Does anyone else have a problem with the way Growth / Shrinking work ?

                        Originally posted by Batgirl III View Post
                        Check out Prodigy Duck's excellent fantasy monster builds, too! Beasties of every size from Ant to... Something big with a Z.
                        Zaratan, maybe?
                        "Nothing is more painful than the betrayal of an angel"

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